DRM Cracks HD-DVD and BLuRay

[Sxotty]

SO it is now fairly common knowledge that all the resources and money that was thrown at this issue has been a waste. All the hassle it causes users will result in no benefit to the movie studios. So why do they still insist upon making life miserable for the consumer?

Perhaps I should not even post this thread, but I am quite annoyed with all of this silliness. People could copy DVDs and VHS and they sold plenty.

Anyway ironically enough when I heard HD-DVD had been cracked originally I thought, hmm I should buy a HD-DVD player as I will never have to worry about compatibility issues. That decided me on which format I would buy a player and movies in. I was away however and when I got back BLuRay apparently has been as well.

I have only had a few DVDs that did not want to play on my HTPC, but it was annoying enough to make me wary of the new formats. That combined with a lack of HDCP meaning what you know already I am sure... In any case I wish someone could go and shake the CEOs a bit and explain to them that behaving like bloody fools is in poor form.

 

[Inane_Dork]

Anything that can be played can be cracked. Movie industry people do not seem to understand that.

 

[jb]

I think the understand it but they maybe thinking harder they make it, the less the "average joe" is going to copy it. Then it comes down to the lesser of the cost: RD and resorces to create/maintain some copy protection scheme vrs potential loss of sales due to the use. They do have some right to protect their data after all as well as you do have a right to make legal copies. These are not an easy question to answer

 

[Sxotty]

I think the understand it but they maybe thinking harder they make it, the less the "average joe" is going to copy it. Then it comes down to the lesser of the cost: RD and resorces to create/maintain some copy protection scheme vrs potential loss of sales due to the use. They do have some right to protect their data after all as well as you do have a right to make legal copies. These are not an easy question to answer

But I think that is completely wrong.

The "average joe" at least as far as piracy goes is the guy who downloads off limewire or bittorrent or whatever, and for them it is no harder just a bigger file. Once you download there is no restrictions anymore on your usage.

I am just appalled that executives seem to either be focusing on the short term (i.e. alienate customer base but make better profits for one quarter) or they are clueless. Either scenario seems dumb to me.

The thing is I don't even really want to make legal copies, I want the option, but I really wouldn't do it (on discs). I would like to put all my movies onto my HTPC though so I don't have to sort through discs however, so if you want to call that a legal copy fine, but I don't even know what one would call that... I understand they don't want their work given away, but all they can come up with seems to be punish the customer not the pirates. I still think that is where the effort should be.

 

[Zaphod]

but all they can come up with seems to be punish the customer not the pirates. I still think that is where the effort should be.

I'll tell you one thing for sure: Every time a DVD makes me sit through three minutes of commercials, four minutes of trailers, two minutes of the "We know you're a bloody thief, don't even try to deny it!"-infomercial, and a legal warning in seven different languages; it breaks one of my remaining moral fibers.

I spend quite a lot on media and entertainment, but I know I have room to spend a lot more. Thus, there is a business model out there, that will make more money from me, but the ones they're pursuing are not it. I believe they'd be better served trying to extract the most money from each individual consumer rather than from each individual product, but the way they're going I'm likely to consume less as the value of each purchase continue to be eroded.

 

[Sxotty]

So what do you think it really is?

Do you think it is because compensation is geared toward stock nowadays and people want a quick short term return? Or do you think it is just cluelessness?

I realize the third motive of making you buy the same content over and over again, but that will only work so well and take them so far especially with video.

 

[Rangers]

So what do you think it really is?

Do you think it is because compensation is geared toward stock nowadays and people want a quick short term return? Or do you think it is just cluelessness?

I realize the third motive of making you buy the same content over and over again, but that will only work so well and take them so far especially with video.

I think it's because a lot of people steal stuff.

 

[Sxotty]

I think it's because a lot of people steal stuff.

By stuff I assume you mean movies in light of this thread otherwise I see little connection.

You think that making the consumer's life more difficult is because other people steal stuff?

And do you think that the strategy is working at reducing piracy? If it is not working then why continue it, why not try something new? People copied DVDs and VHS tapes as I said and there was still a huge amount of profit to be made.

Some people like to have their DVDs all lined up on the wall in their pretty cases so those would buy them even if there were no copy protection.

 

[Zaphod]

So what do you think it really is?

I don't know. If I did, I'd be rich and on a beach somewhere with five beautiful brunettes...[1]

Do you think it is because compensation is geared toward stock nowadays and people want a quick short term return? Or do you think it is just cluelessness?

A bit of both. Initially, I believe that there was a combination of things, including a genuine fear that piracy would hurt financially, but it seems evident that they've later attempted to fuel that perception so as to further a legislative agenda towards a pay-per-play business model. Obviously large scale piracy in markets where legal consumption of media is next to nil haven't been the issue here, although it remains to be seen how well the next-gen video formats may impact this[2].

The thing is: I have yet to see a credible analysis of what piracy actually costs the industry. Anecdotal evidence aside, it is obvious that many who steal wouldn't buy; many who steal that wouldn't buy less; some that steal because the produc is devalued... I read an economics paper (game theory is fun) that tried to model these factors, including the cost to the industry of attempting to 'protect' their content. It concluded that cost and reliability concerns would make it hard to get good data to test the model, and as far as research knew, an ability to evade payment did not preclude the willingness to pay[3] (also, the combined spending on media consumption increasing). I wouldn't be surprised if the total cost of lobbying, legal expenses, (snake oil) copy protection, and loss of customers (due to this) over the last ten years might actually outweigh the cost of casual copyright violation.

[1]As a sidenote: I once (1999) had the chance to invest early in a startup wanting to sell mobile content, but passed because I couldn't bring myself to believe that anyone would be bloody stupid enough to pay $3 (or more) for a crappy logo or a ringtone. Mistake. Shows how much I know...

[2]Man, if only Kodak had put some money towards outlawing the digital camera eight or nine years ago. I mean, technological change is always a serious threat to society, so I'm sure they could have come up with something...

[3]Fun example from a public transport system in some big city, don't remember where, showing that most commuters would be much better off never paying at all and just take the fine whenever they were caught in random ticket controls (yet, 'somehow' the vast majority still payed), and that those determined be freeriders (literally) would stay that way even with significant increses in the penalties.

 

[pcchen]

The "average joe" at least as far as piracy goes is the guy who downloads off limewire or bittorrent or whatever, and for them it is no harder just a bigger file. Once you download there is no restrictions anymore on your usage.

Actually, I think the more common forms of "average joe" pirating is to copy a DVD borrowed from a friend or rented. If they have a simple program which can do this (there are plenty of these programs today for DVD) they'll do it. This is "safer" than downloading from internet because it's virtually untraceable.

I can say it's quite clear that most movie studios don't want the ability to play HD DVD/Bluray on a PC. PC is a relatively open platform, so DRM is not going to work on it. The reason why DVD can be played on a PC is because the PC companies (such as Microsoft) who think it's vital for DVD's success, so they make it happen. On the other hand, SACD is never playable on a PC.

That's why we have this so called trusted computing. They want to make part of a PC to be a closed platform, where you can't have complete control. However, since trusted computing has been demonized to death (which is not necessarily a bad thing), HD DVD/Bluray software players have to go the normal way, and uninevitably the DRM will be broken.

 

[Sxotty]

Actually, I think the more common forms of "average joe" pirating is to copy a DVD borrowed from a friend or rented. If they have a simple program which can do this (there are plenty of these programs today for DVD) they'll do it. This is "safer" than downloading from internet because it's virtually untraceable.

Well I don't know to be sure, but what they caterwaul about and what the advertisements on the movie previews are about is illegal downloading. I assumed they had such advertisements for a reason since they cost money. And I assumed the reason was that they were afraid of illegal downloading.

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

AACS is not cracked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Access_Content_System#Muslix64.27s_exploit
There is a small hole in WinDVD 8.0 and you can find unsecured Volume Unique Keys. Without these VUK BackupHDDVD is useless.
There is a big difference between cracked and "Hey look, there is a small possibility to find VUK somewhere in your RAM".

 

[Sxotty]

There is no easy answer but, IMHO, AACS is totally busted. The only thing I can see for now to prevent the attack I have described is to put different keys on every disc! It will cost a fortune for the manufacturing, so I'm not sure they will go that way...

People say I have not broken AACS, but players. But players are part of this system! And a system is only as strong as his weakest link. Even if players become more secure, key extraction will always be possible.

I know many people of the industry try to cover up this breach, by saying I have only poked a tiny hole in AACS, but it is more serious than that. Only the future will tell.

So they haven't worked out the encryption, but that is irrelevant to whether the system works to protect the content. And that was my point.

 

[pcchen]

Actually, it's hopeless to use DRM to protect anything. By definition, if you can use a software to decode something, other people can do it too. The only way to make a "safe" DRM system is, well, allow only specialized hardwares to decode it. Then you can't really know how to decode it unless you try to probe the chip, which is beyond most people's reach.

"Cracking" AACS by looking in the memory for the key is not a novel idea. As I said before, the whole "trusted computing" concept is to avoid this situation. In a trusted computing environment, other programs are not able to read the memory in a "trusted" environment, so you can't dump the memory. So you can't find the key through the memory dump. Even the decoded data are protected. Actually, it would be even better to protect the program by encrypting the binary, and decrypt it on the fly in the CPU. But trusted computing did not go that far.

 

[ERP]

AACS is not cracked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Access_Content_System#Muslix64.27s_exploit
There is a small hole in WinDVD 8.0 and you can find unsecured Volume Unique Keys. Without these VUK BackupHDDVD is useless.
There is a big difference between cracked and "Hey look, there is a small possibility to find VUK somewhere in your RAM".

The fundamental floor as far as AACS or any other protection is concerned is concerned is that there is no way to revoke decrypted copies, so assuming people are willing to find these holes (and they don't have to make them public) and release the decrypted copies, it's useless as a mechanism to stop illegal downloading.

 

[Sxotty]

The fundamental floor as far as AACS or any other protection is concerned is concerned is that there is no way to revoke decrypted copies, so assuming people are willing to find these holes (and they don't have to make them public) and release the decrypted copies, it's useless as a mechanism to stop illegal downloading.

Precisely. If it doesn't work at protecting content it is nit picking to argue why or if it is cracked.

I just hope we could move past the whole strip the consumers rights phase here soon.

 

[Capeta]

Not many people are going to be downloading 30-50GB pirated movies from the net let alone hosting it.

 

[Blazkowicz]

that's why they'll reencode to divx or xvid. a 4GB 720p divx might be better looking than a 480p 700MB one anyway.

 

[Capeta]

that's why they'll reencode to divx or xvid. a 4GB 720p divx might be better looking than a 480p 700MB one anyway.

I doubt many people would download a 4GB iffy quality 720 divx encoded movie. The whole point of pirating these HD movies is to retain the quality/resolution. Re-encoding a compressed 25GB VC-1/MPEG4 1080p movie down to a 4GB 720p divx isn't going to get you much improvement over a perfect DVD copy from a 30 cent rental. How are you going to play these 720p divx movies anyway? Through your PC? You sure aren't going to be playing them in your DVD player or HD player.

 

[Sxotty]

I doubt many people would download a 4GB iffy quality 720 divx encoded movie. The whole point of pirating these HD movies is to retain the quality/resolution. Re-encoding a compressed 25GB VC-1/MPEG4 1080p movie down to a 4GB 720p divx isn't going to get you much improvement over a perfect DVD copy from a 30 cent rental. How are you going to play these 720p divx movies anyway? Through your PC? You sure aren't going to be playing them in your DVD player or HD player.

You may be right on both counts. But I still found myself excited by the prospect that I could put movies I bought onto my server and watch them on the HTPC. The truth though is that HD-DVD and BluRay are so big in comparison to DVDs I am not sure it is worth the hassle to put them on the computer in the first place whereas with DVDs it is worthwhile IMO to store them on the computer so you can just pick a movie with your remote and not bother with finding the disc ejecting inserting etc...