Do you think it would be a mistake for MS and/or Sony to launch in 2012?

Too early to launch in 2012?

  • Yes

    Votes: 56 65.9%
  • No

    Votes: 29 34.1%

  • Total voters
    85
How do we know this is the 360's peak year?

How did Sony know ps1 had it's peak year in 1998?

Going by that logic, why not wait unit 2002 for ps2?

Why did they instead come out in 1999?

They killed their cash cow ... just doesn't make sense to launch ps2 when ps1 was still so profitable and selling wonderfully ...
 
Design for 28nm.

If the process is ready, (they should know by mid 2012 - E3) then they can go through with the launch as planned.

If 28nm isn't ready, wait.
Except you're better off designing for a time-frame than a process node and waiting until it's ready. You have to come up with your whole marketing strategy, games and services, manage your existing console, etc. So let's say MS plan for a Q4 2012 launch. Come Q3 it's apparent the yields wion't be good enough and they'll ahve to wait 9 months. What do they tell the software companies who were developing launch titles and will be sat around making no money for 9 months? What about the marketing costs of making those Christmas ads which will be shelved? What about the BRD printing runs they've booked? What about the empty hole in XB360's marketing campaign for Holiday 2012 because MS expected to be advertising XB3 but it's not ready?

There aren't many products or industries I can think of that plan around the timeframe of 'when it's ready'. Things are planned many months if not years in advance, and although there are issues to work around, timeframes are known and peopel try to stick to them - hence crunch time in game development rather than taking another 6 months missing the deadline without earning any money and wasting all that marketing. In the case of PS360, had both planned for 65nm and then waited for when it actually became available (different to 28nm I know because that's started now), they'd have launched way late!
 
How did Sony know ps1 had it's peak year in 1998?

Going by that logic, why not wait unit 2002 for ps2?

Why did they instead come out in 1999?

They killed their cash cow ... just doesn't make sense to launch ps2 when ps1 was still so profitable and selling wonderfully ...

Since my post was deleted in the other thread I'll put this here.

Originally Posted by TheChefO
1998 greatest sales year ever for ps1
1999 ps2 launch

Another example that great existing sales does not preclude a HW producer from launching a nextgen machine.

It wasn't exactly like that. Those are Fiscal years. PS2 launched in March 2000 in Japan at the very end of the Sony fiscal year 99 ( FY ends in march). PS1 had at that point done not only it's best fiscal year (98), but pretty much all of it's FY 99 sales also and was trending down. Dreamcast had been out for a while also.
__________________
 
Except you're better off designing for a time-frame than a process node and waiting until it's ready.

HW design is based on process node (power, heat, game software), not time.

You have to come up with your whole marketing strategy, games and services, manage your existing console, etc.

All of which can be planned with an intentional timeframe based on expected node availability.

So let's say MS plan for a Q4 2012 launch. Come Q3 it's apparent the yields wion't be good enough and they'll ahve to wait 9 months.

They should know by late q2. If by then things aren't ready, it won't be 9 months off.

28nm is set to have retail high-end gpus (high power, large, fast) available q1/2012.

28nm should be ready for console production 6 months after q1/2012 when these high-end gpus are launched. If not, a few months more should do the trick. If come q3/2012, 28nm isn't ready, and it will take 9 months more, then TSMC will have produced the worst node launch in history.

As is, TSMC customers are saying the node is coming along better than 40nm. The node should not be an issue for late 2012. If it is, worst case scenario is they have to delay a few months.

In comparison, 90nm gpus launched side by side with xb360.
150nm gpus launched in the same year as xb1.

What do they tell the software companies who were developing launch titles and will be sat around making no money for 9 months?

They won't be waiting 9 months (see above) and it isn't as though xb360 and ps3 consoles won't be able to play the launch lineup. I see no reason why the launch would be any different than the xb360 launch where the majority of the launch lineup was ports of xb1 games.

What about the marketing costs of making those Christmas ads which will be shelved?

The ads will still be usable ... they aren't like food where they have a limited shelf life.

What about the BRD printing runs they've booked?

I'm sure MS would take a hit for a reserved run if they have such a contract in place, but it wouldn't be a crippling blow to their budget to have these runs delayed a few months.

What about the empty hole in XB360's marketing campaign for Holiday 2012 because MS expected to be advertising XB3 but it's not ready?

I fully see xb360 and xb720 coexisting and actually xb360 being more targeted for Christmas sales (kids/family/casuals).

xb720 would be ideally launched around q4, but it wouldn't break the launch by missing this window as far as demand is concerned.

There aren't many products or industries I can think of that plan around the timeframe of 'when it's ready'. Things are planned many months if not years in advance, and although there are issues to work around, timeframes are known and peopel try to stick to them - hence crunch time in game development rather than taking another 6 months missing the deadline without earning any money and wasting all that marketing.

Agreed.

Plan for a specific time (q4/2012). If it is ready, continue as planned. If not, wait.

None of the measures necessary for a console launch will be spoiled by waiting 3 months.

In the case of PS360, had both planned for 65nm and then waited for when it actually became available (different to 28nm I know because that's started now), they'd have launched way late!

Indeed.

MS launched toe to toe with 90nm GPUs.

They couldn't have launched 90nm any sooner than they did.
 
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HW design is based on process node (power, heat, game software), not time.

The time frame will indicate a process node around which you base that design. There's way too much logistics involved (as you have been told many times) for a console launch for time-frame to not be of primary importance.
 
Agreed.

I've said as much.

Design for 28nm.

If the process is ready, (they should know by mid 2012 - E3) then they can go through with the launch as planned.

If 28nm isn't ready, wait.

Hypothetical for you. Let's say they go thru the entire launch process as you say, then decide in mid 2012 to not launch holiday 2012 after all since 28nm didn't pan out. For all the devs/publishers that have been creating games and preparing ad campaigns for this new holiday 2012 machine and are now told to "wait", how do you think they will feel towards Microsoft?
 
Hypothetical for you. Let's say they go thru the entire launch process as you say, then decide in mid 2012 to not launch holiday 2012 after all since 28nm didn't pan out. For all the devs/publishers that have been creating games and preparing ad campaigns for this new holiday 2012 machine and are now told to "wait", how do you think they will feel towards Microsoft?

I suppose roughly the same way they felt toward Sony after the q1/2006 ps3 launch didn't pan out ...

As I said, I'm not anticipating a glut of xb720 exclusive software at launch with which to spoil the plans of devs/pubs.

Are you?

The vast majority of the launch software will likely be ps3/xb360/pc ports. Thus, the software pubs/devs will have a large pool of marketshare to target.

Then a few months down the road, the ported "Nextgen" versions will arrive.
 
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PS2 launched in March 2000 in Japan at the very end of the Sony fiscal year 99 ( FY ends in march). PS1 had at that point done not only it's best fiscal year (98), but pretty much all of it's FY 99 sales also and was trending down. Dreamcast had been out for a while also.

Indeed.

But as has been said, nextgen consoles take a while to design.

Sony made the decision to go ahead with ps2 long before ps1 had shown signs of sales fatigue.
 
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The vast majority of the launch software will likely be ps3/xb360/pc ports
It takes a TON of power just to get current 720p/30FPS games to higher resolution and FPS and you can't really do much of anything else with ports. If people see that new consoles don't really offer much else then it would be horrible advertising.
 
It takes a TON of power just to get current 720p/30FPS games to higher resolution and FPS and you can't really do much of anything else with ports. If people see that new consoles don't really offer much else then it would be horrible advertising.

see xb360 launch lineup
 
see xb360 launch lineup

I think you should see the 360 launch line up again, most of the titles were not last gen ports.

However, let's pretend that every game in the launch line-up is a current gen port Gun/TH:AW-style. Knowing from a dev that worked on those games, it still takes A LOT of work to create those ports, do you still think publishers would be ok with MS saying "Oopsy daisy, looks like we dun goofed and we won't be launching until next year, so hold on to those ports guys!"??

Basically no matter which way you spin it, Joker has a point. As a hardware provider, you can't just wait it out and then decide mid year that you can't launch that year.
 
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I suppose roughly the same way they felt toward Sony after the q1/2006 ps3 launch didn't pan out ...

The giveaway that the PS3 wasn't going to launch in March 2006 well before the end of 2005 was that no-one was developing software with this as the target.

They'd feel completely different about a launch that got yanked to the other side of Christmas just as they were entering beta.

As I said, I'm not anticipating a glut of xb720 exclusive software at launch with which to spoil the plans of devs/pubs.

What's your production timeline on a none exclusive port?

The vast majority of the launch software will likely be ps3/xb360/pc ports. Thus, the software pubs/devs will have a large pool of marketshare to target.

The specific ports will have to justify themselves. If the console that the port was going to sell on evaporates then that's a really big problem for the publisher and the hardware vendor.

You can't just say "never mind" and put it on a shelf for next year. The marketing won't be in place so it won't sell. Also, the game will age like raw meat on a hot day compared to launch titles that continue in development till the next year.

No marketing + putrid product = porting budget (likely in the $million$) disappearing in a flood of shareholder tears.

Then a few months down the road, the ported "Nextgen" versions will arrive.

You're kind of proposing launching a "next gen" console without any actual "next gen" games, exclusive or otherwise! :eek:
 
...As a hardware provider, you can't just wait it out and then decide mid year that you can't launch that year.

And as I said, it wouldn't be the first time ...

When did we get official word on the PS3 "delay" from q1/2006?

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xb360 Launch lineup:


Code:
exclusive	Amped 3 
port	Call of Duty 2 
exclusive	Condemned: Criminal Origins 
exclusive	Every Party 
port	FIFA 06: Road to FIFA World Cup
port	Gun
1st	Kameo: Elements of Power 
port	Madden NFL 06 
port	NBA 2K6 
port	NBA Live 06 
port	Need for Speed: Most Wanted 
port	NHL 2K6 
1st	Perfect Dark Zero 
port	Peter Jackson's King Kong: The Official Game of the Movie 
1st	Project Gotham Racing 3 
port	Quake 4 
exclusive	Ridge Racer 6 
exclusive	Tetris: The Grandmaster ACE 
port	Tiger Woods PGA Tour 06 
port	Tony Hawk's American Wasteland


Out of the 20 launch games, 5 were 3rd party exclusive:

Amped 3
Condemned: Criminal Origins
Every Party
Ridge Racer 6
Tetris: The Grandmaster ACE


3 were 1st party exclusive:

Kameo: Elements of Power
Perfect Dark Zero
Project Gotham Racing 3


and 12 were ports:

Call of Duty 2
FIFA 06: Road to FIFA World Cup
Gun
Madden NFL 06
NBA 2K6
NBA Live 06
Need for Speed: Most Wanted
NHL 2K6
Peter Jackson's King Kong: The Official Game of the Movie
Quake 4
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 06
Tony Hawk's American Wasteland
 
The giveaway that the PS3 wasn't going to launch in March 2006 well before the end of 2005 was that no-one was developing software with this as the target.



They'd feel completely different about a launch that got yanked to the other side of Christmas just as they were entering beta.

I'm sure the devs would have liked a few more months to wrap up their launch titles!

What's your production timeline on a none exclusive port?

Depends on the hardware ... If the hardware is as derivative as I suspect, the existing toolset should work with minimal alteration.

In short, I expect a much more streamlined transition than devs had to go through with the xb360 launch. Plus from what I remember, the dev tools weren't finished yet.

The specific ports will have to justify themselves. If the console that the port was going to sell on evaporates then that's a really big problem for the publisher and the hardware vendor.

As I said above, I'm not anticipating anywhere near the time/investment necessary as what was required for xb360 ports at launch.

You can't just say "never mind" and put it on a shelf for next year. The marketing won't be in place so it won't sell...

Bioshock didn't seem to have a sales issue when it was ported months later to ps3 ... same for Oblivion.

No marketing + putrid product = porting budget (likely in the $million$) disappearing in a flood of shareholder tears.

I suppose if the hardware is that radical a departure, but I'm not anticipating this. Perhaps I'm wrong and they will be radical indeed and the dev tools won't be transferable and it's even more time consuming than xb360 ports were, but I doubt it.

You're kind of proposing launching a "next gen" console without any actual "next gen" games, exclusive or otherwise! :eek:

"Months later" meaning launching the port-ware when the console launched, "months later".
 
...you can't just wait it out and then decide mid year that you can't launch that year.

Delays happen.

The target is reasonable.

Whether they are targeting such a date is up for debate, but it is a reasonable target based on past trends and currently available production tech.
 
I think you should see the 360 launch line up again, most of the titles were not last gen ports.

However, let's pretend that every game in the launch line-up is a current gen port Gun/TH:AW-style. Knowing from a dev that worked on those games, it still takes A LOT of work to create those ports, do you still think publishers would be ok with MS saying "Oopsy daisy, looks like we dun goofed and we won't be launching until next year, so hold on to those ports guys!"??

Basically no matter which way you spin it, Joker has a point. As a hardware provider, you can't just wait it out and then decide mid year that you can't launch that year.

First, most third party publishers don't release their major franchises as launch titles. Most major titles are targeted for the second or third holiday season for a newly launched consoles. Most launch titles are there to take advantage of the limited competition even though there exist limited availability of hardware.

Furthermore, when it comes to third party titles, most launch lineups come off as a bunch of rush titles with limited budgets with the most of the more prominent titles targeted for launch delayed a few months anyway. Sony goofed on a spring launch and its not like Sony had a bunch of titles available for the holidays nor was there public outcry by launch developers over the delay.

I don't see how MS or Sony is worried about 28nm being available for holiday 2012 when Apple is planning on 28 nm A6s and Apple will probably need more 28 nm based A6 chips over an 18 month period than MS or Sony will need next-gen console chips over their consoles' lifetime.
 
I don't see how MS or Sony is worried about 28nm being available for holiday 2012 when Apple is planning on 28 nm A6s and Apple will probably need more 28 nm based A6 chips over an 18 month period than MS or Sony will need next-gen console chips over their consoles' lifetime.

Oh I see, you're expecting next gen consoles to be on the level of ARM A6 manufacturing? That would explain a lot.

Let's be serious: TSMC isn't the only one helping Apple.
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4229790/Samsung-ramping-Apple-A6-chips

Comparison to mobile has little bearing here.
 
Oh I see, you're expecting next gen consoles to be on the level of ARM A6 manufacturing? That would explain a lot.

The snarky attitude WRT 28nm in 2012 with nothing to back it up is a bit much.

What do you expect the yield/cost to be in q2/q3/q4 for a 250-300mm^2 GPU?

What do you base this on?
 
The snarky attitude WRT 28nm in 2012 with nothing to back it up is a bit much.
Oh I see, you're expecting next gen consoles to be on the level of ARM A6 manufacturing? That would explain a lot.

Let's be serious: TSMC isn't the only one helping Apple.
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4229790/Samsung-ramping-Apple-A6-chips

Comparison to mobile has little bearing here.

Here.

What do you expect the yield/cost to be in q2/q3/q4 for a 250-300mm^2 GPU?

What do you base this on?

That's funny, I thought you would have given us numbers for that already. That has been your job in the past few days, has it not?
 
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