Do the games suck, or is it just me?

[Billy Idol]

Perhaps, although I don't feel that's happened to me. Too much of the same is more what has cheapened brands to me, not the price that I paid for the game. I do think it explains why I'm not so bitter towards games though compared to others. If a game suddenly seems silly, I would just delete it rather than slog through it for another 5 hours. If "that section was no fun" well I wouldn't know because I would have stopped playing it the instant I wasn't enjoying it anymore. Frustrating boss? Don't know, I would have quit and deleted the game. Because of that games are still pure fun to me although I likely do play substantially less than most here. Ultimately with 8 games still in my Steam library, and 17 more sitting in my wishlist that will likely be bought in thr $2 to $15 range means I will never run out of awesome cheap gaming.

I pretty much do the same. I do not force me to play a game until the end. I just play if it makes fun or I can see that a not yet introduced feature will be funny. I don't mind quiting a game if I think it is a waste of time.

But I am really surprised about the examples mentioned here as games being not worth it. Maybe, games just isn't for you anymore guys...although you guys are not old at all. If you don't see the quality and improvement of Borderland 2 e.g. while enjoying the first one...I just can shake my head. It is my game of the year and improved in every single aspect. Same goes for Bioshock Infinite, which is one of the best story games out there in my opinion.

Billy shakes head, scratches head and feels as far away from B3D forum members as never before...

 

[Graham]

Partly, the problem is an aging demographic. No question. I have no where near the time or energy I used to have to invest in games.

I think the bigger part is being a symptom of game development maturing and trying to compete with film, etc. There are so many parts of the market to appeal to - which such large budgets and such massive, aggressive competition it's no longer financially viable for many developers to target a niche. Broad appeal I guess. Nevermind how inherently difficult and risky game development is.

Different people need different motivations for playing a game. Some people play it on easy - and simply are there for the spectacle. Some couldn't care less about this, and are there for a challenge. For some learning mechanics and optimising gives them the most gratification, for some it is unravelling a story or feeling like they had an influence on the world and characters. Then there are people who play games for their addictive qualities. Etc etc.

I think the problem is that pretty much all majorly successful games have been excellent in one or two of these areas while (for the most part) ignoring the others; whereas the enevitable sequel must broaden the demographic while trying to maintain what made it popular. The games that really nail this formula are pretty obvious; they iterate without getting distracted. Half a billion sales later, Mario is still a pretty amazingly niche focused set of games (when you look at the various games individually).

Publishers, I suspect, are afraid to let a game have a narrow focus. On the one hand you don't want a genre to stagnate like 2D fighters (that have become almost impenetrable for new players); yet growth demands bigger budgets, more scope and a bigger audience...

I suspect this is a big reason why we've seen such a resurgence in indie games, mobile and F2P. They target their niche (and make no apologies for it) - Angry birds has been refined to infinity and you get the likes of world of tanks, LoL, Dota2, TF2 etc all targeting their niche without much deviation - but a lot of polish and little distraction.



I get the feeling these lessons are being learnt though (however slowly). Bioshock Infinite has (quite rightly) had a lot of discussion about its excessive violence and unnecessary padding marring an otherwise wonderful game (look back at the various trailers and you see a game with a very different focus - one that in most cases I'd much rather have played). Tomb Raider for its violence and pointless collectables is another recent example. Consider the uproar over ME3's ending; that ending was entirely standard shooter fair (it was hardly Rage) yet the fanbase was vocal because they felt it ignored all the game's strengths.

I get the feeling that long term, the industry will need to put more trust in a smaller group of individuals. A model closer to the director/writer/producer model in movies. No more mandated multiplayer, DLC, etc. A trust in more risky, focused games (here's hoping that FC3: Blood Dragon is a huge success ). That's what I want to play - games that take risks - and that's what motivates me and keeps me interested.

 

[Davros]

In the pc games forum we've had the discussion for years about the dumbing down and simplification of games and a lot of the blame has been pointed at consoles, a couple of reasons for this :
limited memory means smaller simpler enviroments
limited buttons on a console means options have to be simplified or in many cases just omitted some pc games require over 100+ buttons and you cant do that on a controller
example

Something like this wouldnt be possible on a console unless they had keyboard support
Also gaming conventions have crossed over from the console like collectibles, achievements incessant hand holding, auto-aim, the proliferation of the cut scene, and the dreaded quicktime event.
I just wondered what the console players blame it on or if the simplification of games is as noticeable on the console

 

[Blazkowicz]

I've recently learn the Ouya includes a touchpad on the gamepad - though it's not very apparent, and very small. Dunno if devs will bind some useful commands to it, they'll have to actually target the console and not just port some Android and other games (XBOX LA, PSN, indie PC games compatible with a controller?)

The system that obviously gives way more non-motion input is the WiiU, but I doubt it will have aircraft/helicopter/spacecraft games with complex controls like your example.
BTW, this reminds me of the first Deus Ex : there were maybe that many keys, and coupled with the lousy graphics (IMO) I never really got into it and never completed the first mission. (part of it was the UI bug : selecting "high textures" gave you very blurry ones, you had to select "medium" to get the highest res textures! the other part was me still being unintesred after finding out about it one year later)

Many classic games didn't require a huge lot of keys, though. Take Return to Castle Wolfenstein : it's like the Quake 1/2/3 tradition of only needing WASD, shoot, jump, change weapon (but with crouch, kick and use). It was nice, great graphics, sound and good gameplay, and that game didn't have the cutscene and scripting plagues.

BTW I was pissed at HL2 for making you run in an unchallenging, narrow corridor and constantly throwing tons of healthpacks at you. It's really like that "2010 fps" mockery, but with less cutscenes (and you can walk and look at things in the cutscenes). Doom 3 pissed me off with too much emphasis on lame story and interrupting me with lots of PDA messages and mails I have to read and listen to.
Actually, HL2 has its own share of responsibility in the dumbing down of games.

I don't really remember playing any FPS after Far Cry 1, which was another apex of goodness (and innovative too). Crysis 1 was where I experienced health regen for the first time : it was ridiculous as I could stand in machine gun fire without consequences. Also, it's an occurrence of detrimental complex controls. I would die because of hitting the "tweak weapon" key by mistake.

So amount of keys is not a great indicator on its own. Sure, in e.g. the old Xwing game and others, they were very needed and welcome. That made the games possible at all.

 

[patsu]

Isn't the top kids game today Minecraft?

I have heard a lot about Minecraft in an informal parent conference in my son's elementary school. The parents were asking how to limit their sons' time in the game. ^_^

I am more teaching the kids how to appreciate games, and how to make your own game. *And* training them to pull away from a game on-demand (No "5 more minutes").

Their parents usually can't connect with the kids in this aspect. OTOH, I'm like a big kid in this area.

...

That's interesting. Need more time to digest. I'm down with severe Spring allergies. [rage]


EDIT:

...

Holy sheeet at the keyboard commands. I sense an important point made here but can't quite put a finger on it. Must be the pollen effects. I should just go to sleep now.

 

[Blazkowicz]

I have heard a lot about Minecraft in an informal parent conference in my son's elementary school. The parents were asking how to limit their sons' time on the game. ^_^

I am more teaching the kids how to appreciate games, and how to make your own game. *And* training them to pull away from a game on-demand (No "5 more minutes").

Some scheduled task (on linux, I'd say cron job) which removes and grants execution rights at fixed hours. But the PC would have to be more locked down (by default, it seems that Windows gives you root permission when you click "Yes" on a UAC prompt), children shouldn't be able to guess or crack/remove the admin password by booting a live USB, children shouldn't be able to just download another copy of the game and run it (so execution rigths have to be limited to C:\Program Files\ and C:\Windows\ only, without writing rights to those directories)

Or do the same on Linux (mounting /home and other data partitions with the noexec flag gets you there)
Well, I don't think these suggestions will fly with the parents . Why not even have an Active Directory server at home to control the devices.. which might be doable with Samba 4.

Sorry for the off-topic but those stupid computers and OS have still a long way to go. I'm sure there's commercial "parental control" software, but the experience will be different depending on what has been installed on the PC and maybe there's still sysadmin work to do for the child to not disable it. Then again, consoles can have parental restrictions (esp. the Wii) but from what I've read time limiting does exist, only it's not available to the end user I think (e.g. WiiU restrictions on downloading 18+ content)

Also, change the hour in BIOS and disable network connectivity.. you can defeat time based restrictions, unless a service is logging time spent running the game. Me thinks a child could be actually able to figure that out.
There's yet another hole, booting a persistent (or not) linux live USB with Java installed and OpenGL that works well enough for the game. You might want to set a BIOS password and have the PC boot on HDD only.

umm, all that tinfoil hatry to conclude that the technical measures are a dead end, unless you want to sysadmin around your kid (and guests, and people getting on your wifi, and firewalling off Sony or whoever)

 

[Nisaaru]

BTW, this reminds me of the first Deus Ex : there were maybe that many keys, and coupled with the lousy graphics (IMO) I never really got into it and never completed the first mission. (part of it was the UI bug : selecting "high textures" gave you very blurry ones, you had to select "medium" to get the highest res textures! the other part was me still being unintesred after finding out about it one year later)

The first level of Deus Ex felt a bit demotivating as managing the weapons with novice skills feels awkward but you improve your skills. The game had a few technical flaws but the story, atmosphere, immersion, level design and gameplay over shined them by far. A lot elements of that game left a lasting impression even after 13 years.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In the pc games forum we've had the discussion for years about the dumbing down and simplification of games and a lot of the blame has been pointed at consoles, a couple of reasons for this :
limited memory means smaller simpler environments
limited buttons on a console means options have to be simplified or in many cases just omitted some pc games require over 100+ buttons and you cant do that on a controller
example

Right, but now ignore that niche which isn't the type of games being talked about here. COD would still be COD if not on consoles; they wouldn't added 100 different buttons. Borderlands 2 doesn't need 100 buttons. Bioshock Infinite doesn't need 100 buttons. You don't need 100 buttons to make a good, engaging game. One can even argue that those 100 button games are poorly designed bloat. If you compare Monkey Island 3 with 2 and 1, you see a very elegant game that lost all complexity from its interface and actually enabled a freer, more engaging experience. Advances in UI design with UIs making context switches on input can fit more game onto less controls, and AI can handle micromanagement that can be a considerable bore (though has to be balanced right. Master of Orion 3 was a crap game because it was mostly automatic, losing all the management of the genre!).

I just wondered what the console players blame it on or if the simplification of games is as noticeable on the console

The simplification is trying to reach a wider audience, as Graham says, IMO. Present Joe Gamer with a requirement to learn 100 key combinations and they'll run for the hills. Ergo PC games have endeavoured to simplify to lose the entrance obstacles. This is only going to get worse with tablet gaming encouraging developers to try and reach those untouched markets, if they don't have sense to pick their audience.

 

[nightshade]

I never understood the argument of having more buttons = more complex game.
It's not, it really isn't infact it's the exact opposite of complex...it just archaic and bad game design.

You can't help in cases of flight simulator though, and it's understandable, but for others there are far more effective solutions that can be done with good use of UI. Also have a look at MGS games, the amount of stuff you can do with the limited number of buttons on a controller is just fantastic.


The simplification has more to do with audience and what sells these days than consoles.

 

[Cjail]

Simple solutions often are also elegant solutions.
Simplicity is not stupidity.

 

[Davros]

COD would still be COD if not on consoles;

I wondered about that so I fired up Cod 1 (developed for the keyboard) and Cod modern warfare developed with the console in mind and therefore developed to be played on a controller. And I looked at the keys commands (or actions) the single player portion of each game has
cod1 = 40 different actions
cod mw1 = 20 different actions

now while you can argue (and i agree) that some of those commands needed to go, its also true that some have been removed due to the controllers lack of buttons
and this is in a simple game.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What are the extra actions in COD1, and are they necessary to make a better game? As I say, Monkey Island started with 12 verbs and condensed them down to one action without losing anything of the game. In fact it improved the game. Just having more discrete controls doesn't necessarily make a game superior.

 

[Davros]

The 2 main actions i think cod should not of lost are leaning and rate of fire.
Most assault rifles can switch between single shot, burst and full auto. You select the single and burst for ammo conservation and to reduce inaccuracy due to recoil but perhaps the auto aim on the console negates this.

The commands that I dont miss are for example the crouch and toggle crouch keys losing one of those is no loss imho (there is also prone and toggle prone and aim down the sight and toggle aim down the sight)

ps: I just wondered, do any console racing games have a proper manual gear box (not a sequential)
eg: can i go straight from second gear to fifth if I so desired ?

 

[ArcticCircle]

Born in 1975 and I've played games as long as I can remember. For me the biggest change happend with the original Xbox and how it moved the PC style of gaming into various niche categories. And today in 2013, we mostly play consoles games, no matter if we play 'em with console or PC.

Sure there's still Mobas, MMOs, RTS and various indie games that are more or less exclusive for the PC, but AAA games are designed for consoles first. Strangely enough, often the best way to play console games is with PC. Higher framerate, higher resolution and if we're lucky, maybe better textures. But design (save points, memory limitations, HD limitations, certain control and game mechanics that work controllers as opposed to keyboard, UI design ect ect). We're at the dawn of the 3rd console generation and I still can't get used to see those in PC environment.

I've noticed that it has changed the way I play the games. I'm more careless, I don't plan my movement or position, I don't care if I get hit or not, I stealth much less then before and I ignore what game characters say or do. I rarely remember the names of the NPCs or locations. It used to be opposite of that.

For me the loss of save everywhere has been the hardest pill to swallow. I don't choose the hardest difficulty by default anymore. Reason for this is the fact that I hate repeating content right after I've already done it once minutes or seconds ago. I'm no stranger to wipes in MMOs, but I have no desire to do that in singleplayer games. Even if I know it hurts my gaming experience, I choose normal/hard difficulty as opposed to very hard / insane / nightmare.

It's not all bad. I really like some of the new genres that hit the lime light in this or previous console game generation. Open world games and sandboxes are my new fav genre since the WRPGs have died down or morphed into action adventure hybrids. GTAs, Assassins Creeds, Saint's Rows... While you still see the console limitations, there's still something that remind me of old PC games. I make the adventure, I choose to explore the areas, do the optional content on my own pace and with limited resources. Even something as simple as to allow Z-axis movement is big deal for me. It feels great to jump over a knee high wall

 

[tuna]

umm, all that tinfoil hatry to conclude that the technical measures are a dead end, unless you want to sysadmin around your kid (and guests, and people getting on your wifi, and firewalling off Sony or whoever)

As a parent I have to say you are right, you shouldn't use technical solutions to solve an upbringing problem. Also, what is the kid supposed to do with his time other than playing Minecraft?

 

[Davros]

More simplification going on

Eurogamer has comments on Splinter Cell: Blacklist from Ubisoft Toronto's Jade Raymond, who discusses how the series has "stayed with the most pure approach to that stealth experience" over the years. Though she doesn't come out and say the game is being simplified for its upcoming installment, she does comment that there is a feeling among the executives at Ubisoft (surely hardcore gamers) that the Splinter Cell video games could be more popular but for their complexity: "One of the things that held it back is despite all of the changes that have happened over the years, it's still one of the more complex and difficult games to play," she tells them. "Even though we do have core fans who are like, 'Oh, I want to have more of this experience,' when you play any other game that has stealth elements, they're all a lot more forgiving than Splinter Cell." She goes on to talk of a "broader" experience which can allow for more of an action/game experience:

 

[orangpelupa]

Simplification is going on Duck Tales Remaster HD too. Albeit not in the gameplay mechanic, but on the explanation.

on original duck tales, i need to try things for myself to know that i can do so many thing. Now on Duck Tales remaster, the producer think that gamer on current generation wont get it without cutscene explaining it.

http://gamexeon.com/developer-duck-...mer-jaman-sekarang-perlu-cutscene-agar-paham/

 

[nightshade]

Simplification is going on Duck Tales Remaster HD too. Albeit not in the gameplay mechanic, but on the explanation.

on original duck tales, i need to try things for myself to know that i can do so many thing. Now on Duck Tales remaster, the producer think that gamer on current generation wont get it without cutscene explaining it.

http://gamexeon.com/developer-duck-...mer-jaman-sekarang-perlu-cutscene-agar-paham/

I think he's right, you look at a game like Resident Evil 6 which has so many gameplay mechanics that is not explained at all in the game, instead of a tutorial level the game gives you a "cinematic" prologue with no explanation of the mechanics. Majority of the people who played the game weren't even aware of the things they could do in the game.

 

[Blazkowicz]

In a game like Duck Tales there's opportunity to put a *manual* accessible from the start screen.
Static screens with pictures and text, maybe an animation of McScrooge hitting a block or a statue with the cane. I would like that, better than running through cutscene tutorials and tutorial levels everytime you play a game.

 

[orangpelupa]

But if it's not forced, no one will notice it. Because no one RTM, digitally or physical.