Derek Smart on ATI Driver issues

This smacks of trying to elevate 3dfx and ATI by viewing history through rose colored glasses (as usual) I have the exact opposite experience from NVidia

Sorry if my post confused you to the point of trying to make this an elevation of NVIDIA above 3dfx and ATI through rose colored glasses (as usual), but that wasnt the point.

I may have muddled the consumer relations vs. developer relations a bit in the end there, but the main point was consumer relations = developer relations. Publicly listing bugs trickles down to developers, rather than developers having inside information from their dev. rel. reps that consumers will beat their heads against the wall for months trying to isolate or determine the source.

Like I already said concerning NVIDIA dev. rel.- from my collegues still interacting with NV, their experiences are finally favorable and more "informal" honest responses seem to be the result, which was never the case in the past. If anything, I figured this would illustrate an *improvement* in their support services versus the crappy, idiot CS path some management training still preaches.

On end-user support, there are a stack of Z/W buffer, AF, refresh, TV-Out and plethora of other issues outstanding on the GF4 that are a black-hole/void of information to the consumers, versus several public confirmations of similar issues for the 9700. NVIDIA has always been double-secret in releasing informaton to their consumers regarding bugs (for obvious competition reasons) and ATI seems to have taken that leap with the 9700. Whether it pays off or is destructive remains to be seen, but from the onset it seems to be favorable. The only time NVIDIA has ever come forward to acknowledge a bug or issue is under extreme pressure of being pointed as a "cheat" to cover up with PR/reasoning- yet I've never seen them come forward for general, everyday bugs/issues like ATI is doing now for their consumers... just for their developers with Cg issues, and developer interest issues only.
 
Doomtrooper said:
Doomtroopers overclocking Tab request in the Catalyst drivers..

1,468,649)Overclocking tab in drivers

:LOL:

I'm off to meet with some ATi representative in Denmark tomorrow and I actually have that item on my list of questions.

"Have you considered putting overclocking in your driver control panels?"
and/or
"Have you considered a public release of the WinCLK overclocking tool?"

I'll make sure to remind them that Doomtropper will haunt them and burn their houses down unless they comply with out demands if that's ok with you? ;)
 
Ante P said:
Doomtrooper said:
Doomtroopers overclocking Tab request in the Catalyst drivers..

1,468,649)Overclocking tab in drivers

:LOL:

I'm off to meet with some ATi representative in Denmark tomorrow and I actually have that item on my list of questions.

"Have you considered putting overclocking in your driver control panels?"
and/or
"Have you considered a public release of the WinCLK overclocking tool?"

I'll make sure to remind them that Doomtropper will haunt them and burn their houses down unless they comply with out demands if that's ok with you? ;)

Yes yes..more pressure...I've been pestering ATI a long time for a overclocking tab as all the major OEMS like Unitech ship with one on the 8500, my latest target was our new ATI guys on this forum..but as usual got shot down :(


Maybe a little reg entry to unlock it..sorta like cool bits...hint hint..nudge..nudge
 
I think it has something to do with failing WHQL if you have overclocking options on your property tabs, though I might be completely off base there.
 
RussSchultz said:
I think it has something to do with failing WHQL if you have overclocking options on your property tabs, though I might be completely off base there.
To me, having an overclocking utility built into the driver is a big Pandora's box... First, some people will break their cards from overclocking. Second, overclocking can reduce the lifespan of the product. Third, some people might be tempted to overclock the card in the driver in order to increase benchmark results. Fourth, there are many other issues that seem more important.

The average user is not an overclocker, so is it really a worthwhile investment to add this feature to the driver? Don't forget that there are third party overclocking utilities that work just fine.

If there were no third party applications to fill this niche, then I would be more supportive of it.

P.S. This is all my own opinion. I don't speak for ATi (and never do).
 
OpenGL guy...

I agree with you...and this is why ATI should implement a "CoolBits" like feature...Don't enable it by default, but allow the "power" and "enthusiast" crowd an opportunity to enable this. In doing so, you won't necessarily have to worry about providing a feature to the avg. Joe, as they're not very likely to explore such an option...
 
OpenGL guy,,

I am a little disenfranchised... i thought you stated that the D3D Code base for the 9700 is completely new...

DS also seems to have brought up some pretty long standing issues that simply should be fixed. Like Fog, and Z issues. These are the exact kind of issues that end up messing up various new releaes.. etc...

It bothers me even more that according to DS there are an *unknown* nember of bugs that may *never* get fixed becuase they might break some other games *work-arounds*...

I have to admit If true.. this is pretty upsetting....

But then again.. maybe he is just out there on some of these things.
 
Hellbinder[CE said:
]I am a little disenfranchised... i thought you stated that the D3D Code base for the 9700 is completely new...
When did I ever comment on the matter?
DS also seems to have brought up some pretty long standing issues that simply should be fixed. Like Fog, and Z issues. These are the exact kind of issues that end up messing up various new releaes.. etc...
I don't know of any fog issues. And Z issues? Did you mean Z bias? Did you see that I addressed this above?
It bothers me even more that according to DS there are an *unknown* nember of bugs that may *never* get fixed becuase they might break some other games *work-arounds*...
What game workarounds is he referring to? I don't see it in our code.

It bothers me that some minor game developer is talking about things which he has little knowledge of. What does he know of our codebase? Maybe he has encountered some issues, but I haven't seen or heard of these issues myself, aside from the Z-bias issue which I fixed. Most people are saying that things are great with the Radeon 9700. Yes, there are problems, but that's the kind of feedback we need to get things fixed. I must say that I was very happy to see that the review sites had so few issues. Note that I didn't say I was surprised.
I have to admit If true.. this is pretty upsetting....
Have you experienced problems? If so, then tell us so things can get fixed. If not, what are you worried about?
But then again.. maybe he is just out there on some of these things.
Sounds like a distinct possibility.
 
Opengl_guy will the Unified Driver Archictecture be broken with the Radeon 9700, I personally have no problem downloading a different driver for different cards ??
Like the inquirer always says "inquiring minds want to know " :D
 
Have any of you guys ever used Powerstrip (http://www.entechtaiwan.com)? The freely downloadable, frequently updated utility that lets you adjust clock speeds and a whole host of other video settings? I think it works as well as any "overclocking tab" ATI could implement...
 
GraphixViolence said:
Have any of you guys ever used Powerstrip (http://www.entechtaiwan.com)? The freely downloadable, frequently updated utility that lets you adjust clock speeds and a whole host of other video settings? I think it works as well as any "overclocking tab" ATI could implement...
powerstrip is a waste
Why use it when we could have a nice, streamlined, non bloated program to do ONLY what we want?
 
OpenGL Guy..

Thank you for your reply... i appriciate it.

When did I ever comment on the matter?

I thought you had commented on this at Rage3d... Perhaps i am mistaken.

What game workarounds is he referring to? I don't see it in our code.

He is not talking about game workarounds in the driver code. He is talking about game developers that have worked around issues, meaning that if the real driver issue was addressed... then the game code would have to be patched to reflect the driver changes, else it could become corrupt.

You are right.. i dont even have my 9700 yet.. It is silly for me to get bent out of shape over something like this..

I am really looking forward to getting the card in a few days.
 
Doomtrooper said:
Opengl_guy will the Unified Driver Archictecture be broken with the Radeon 9700, I personally have no problem downloading a different driver for different cards ??
Like the inquirer always says "inquiring minds want to know " :D

The 9700 will not "break" our unified driver model. However, our driver model allows for some new code to be introduced with new cards. As was stated at the 9700 intro, some new code was introduced with the 9700, but the fact remains that a most of the code is not new. Today, drivers reflect so many different things (2d, d3d, ogl, cpanel, multi-media, etc...) that inspection of dll files certainly cannot reveal new code. No ISV is privy to our code and none can make truthful statements about which parts might be new or not.
 
Not having read all the stuff on this topic (nor Derek's)....

It sounded like what he meant was one of 2 things...

1. If ATI fixed certain things, it would break other games altogether...those that have patches w/ workarounds for specific bugs that were never fixed.

2. If ATI fixed certain things, it would end up breaking his current workarounds.

Again, I didn't read the thing from top to bottom, so it may have been totally clear...But it seems like it was some combination of the above.

If it turned out anything like #1...Ouch. That's one of those deals that...if something like that were true...that's a bad deal. (again, I'm not sure if it's totally off the mark or not)
 
On the topic of Radeon 9700 drivers... can any of the ATI folk reading these forums comment on the future of anti-aliasing support in 16-bit framebuffer modes on the Radeon 9700?

I was quite suprised to discover that my new board offers absolutely no anti-aliasing support for 16-bit display modes. It's not a detail that seems to get attention in any articles released to date.
 
Dan G said:
On the topic of Radeon 9700 drivers... can any of the ATI folk reading these forums comment on the future of anti-aliasing support in 16-bit framebuffer modes on the Radeon 9700?

I was quite suprised to discover that my new board offers absolutely no anti-aliasing support for 16-bit display modes. It's not a detail that seems to get attention in any articles released to date.

The current 9700 drivers do not support AA with 16b frame buffers. We are investigating various options for dealing with this in future drivers, but we cannot commit to anything at this point. Sorry.
 
Without going into details...

How difficult would it be to "promote" a 16-bit game to 32-bit? Have some sort of "force 32-bit" to be able to enable Anti-aliasing...

On the outside, does that seem like the easier path...? Or are there numerous obstacles in the way to go that route...
 
Typedef Enum said:
Without going into details...

How difficult would it be to "promote" a 16-bit game to 32-bit? Have some sort of "force 32-bit" to be able to enable Anti-aliasing...

On the outside, does that seem like the easier path...? Or are there numerous obstacles in the way to go that route...

It's possible, and that is an option. The biggest obstacle would be the ability of the application to lock the surface -- If they expect to read a 16b surface and get 32b data, that might be a problem :)
 
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