Derek Smart on ATI Driver issues

Interesting read. The name wumpus sounds familiar, though I can't recall from where I remember seeing it. Was it the old 3dfx news groups?

Now, DS claims that the 9700 drivers are based of the old drivers and were not started from scratch as some people have said. So, if this is true, then increase in performance that every one is expecting from the 9700 in the coming months may not happen, simply cause ATI have already had years to gain performance from the drivers and may not get much more efficient. Is this a likely scenario?

Although things may be completely different when DX9 is released.

Fuz
 
alexsok said:
O.k sure, I can agree on that, but it's fairly obvious that the ATI drivers for R300 weren't written from scratch as was previously stated, but are based on the old drivers code.
Seriously, who cares? Were the GF4 drivers were written from scratch? Do you think that the NV30 drivers will be brand new, cleanroom new drivers? I doubt it very much.
 
Some of the things he says do make sense
ATI are known to have one of the worst reputations in the business for drivers..

What is confusing me is that he states he has found NO PROBLEMS with the ATI 9700 Pro. He also clearly states that ATI have improved no end in developing drivers.

It was a bit like Anand stating that he found no problems with the drivers for his 9700 Pro preview but still stated that he didnt like ATI's shoddy drivers.

I dont get it.

Of course Derek Smart is very smart (pun intended) and can open up the drivers and see what is going on. So can JC who re-iterates what DS just said... the 9700 Pro is great and there are NO PROBLEMS.

So I dont understand the reasoning of his rabid post.
 
Seriously, who cares? We're the GF4 drivers written from scratch? Do you think that the NV30 drivers will be brand new, cleanroom new drivers? I doubt it very much.

Precisely!

I don't give a damn whether the drivers were written from scratch or not, although that's always the best solution.

In regards to NV30, there is still a possibility that the UDA will be broken, but we'll see...
 
although that's always the best solution

It is not always the best solution. In fact I would say it is a very bad solution for brand new hardware in most cases.

Even the Matrox Parhelia drivers were initially based on the G4xx and G5xx drivers.

Familiarity is a great advantage most of the time.
 
cellarboy said:
Seriously, who cares? Were the GF4 drivers were written from scratch? Do you think that the NV30 drivers will be brand new, cleanroom new drivers? I doubt it very much.

Actually, I do have a little concern, read my post above.
 
alexsok said:
I don't give a damn whether the drivers were written from scratch or not, although that's always the best solution.

What? That's like saying you should re-invert the wheel everytime you design a new car!

Fuz: Given the new pipeline in the 9700, I would still think there are optimisations to be made in the drivers. After all, the 8500 drivers were based off the older Radeon core drivers and they've managed to get a bit more performance out of those.
 
Fuz,

Since the 9700 is completly new architexture I'm sure there is lots of headroom for driver optimizations and improvements plus the lack of Dx9 itself...

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the 9700 will not be using a UDA , maybe Opengl_guy can clarify.
 
misae said:
although that's always the best solution

It is not always the best solution. In fact I would say it is a very bad solution for brand new hardware in most cases.

Even the Matrox Parhelia drivers were initially based on the G4xx and G5xx drivers.

Familiarity is a great advantage most of the time.

I agree.

But keep in mind that Parhelia 512 is not exactly top of the line hardware and Matrox never really had much success with optimizing their drivers in the past...

On a related note, I highly doubt UDA will be broken with the introduction of the NV30, but that's still a possibility, albeit a slim one...
 
What? That's like saying you should re-invert the wheel everytime you design a new car!

NV30 is the most complex chip nVidia every made and as they say, the biggest effort they contributed to the industry since their foundation.

I agree that reinventing the wheel by rewrting the drivers from scratch each time is pointless, but with the introduction of a completely new architecture (NV30 & R300), that makes sense.

ATI stated before that the codebase for R300 drivers is completely rewritten, but I donno whether this is true or not...

Maybe OpenGL Guy can help us out here...
 
cellarboy said:
Fuz: Given the new pipeline in the 9700, I would still think there are optimisations to be made in the drivers. After all, the 8500 drivers were based off the older Radeon core drivers and they've managed to get a bit more performance out of those.
Doomtrooper said:
Since the 9700 is completly new architexture I'm sure there is lots of headroom for driver optimizations and improvements plus the lack of Dx9 itself...

Thanks, I was thinking the same, just good to make sure.

Fuz
 
I don't think Derek Smart's posts were particularly rabid in the context of all the other stuff he writes. That's just his habitual tone.

I can reconcile his praise of the 9700 with his disparagement of ATI's drivers by imagining that the workarounds he put in his engine still work for the 9700, so from his perspective, the 9700 at release is as solid, driver-wise, as the 8500 is now. That, coupled with its great performance, makes the 9700 a great card--although one that still requires workarounds that Derek considers ugly and blames ATI for the necessity of.

OpenGL guy suggests that the underlying problem is an ambiguity in the Direct3D specification, which makes sense to me. I fear that with nVidia's dominance, developers have tended to assume that when a spec is ambiguous, the way nVidia interprets it is automatically correct, and the way other IHV's interpret it is wrong. This can stand in the way of having an actual "correct" spec later on (see the browser wars).

One reason to hope for a reasonably fresh go at the drivers for the 9700 is the hope that a whole raft of incompatibilities that have haunted ATI drivers in the past may go away in one fell swoop. It does not appear that this was the case. At the same time, we haven't seen what the DirectX 9 drivers for the card will be like--and as OpenGL guy points out, there will be other driver releases before then.
 
alexsok said:
I agree that reinventing the wheel by rewrting the drivers from scratch each time is pointless, but with the introduction of a completely new architecture (NV30 & R300), that makes sense.
It's highly unlikely it will be a completely new architechture. 2D cores, for example, really haven't progressed much in years. Even a radically different 3D core would probably share some functions with older cores, so why bother writing drivers from the groud up?

The NV30 is likely to be no more revolutionary than the R300 is to the R200. More instructions, sure, but at the end of the day it still does the same thing - only nicer.
 
Derek Smart may be a smart guy, but he has an ego larger than all the other programmers in the world put together, and unjustifiably so (in relation to his actual achievements). Just go look at his usenet postings. He's a little insecure and has a strong desire to prove himself constantly. Perhaps because he is an African American in a field where very few reach the heights he has, he goes so far in boasting about his achievements and striving to get public attention. However, that doesn't excuse the relentless b*llsh*tting he does, which includes, possibly, lying about his Phd, and talking about career history that simply doesn't exist (look at usenet messages) He should be happy and secure in his achievements so far and not need to embellish them.


John Carmack is marvelously humble, mellow and even handed in comparison. JC rarely brags or boasts about anything, despite the fact that he continues to innovate and ship one of the best game engines in the world, and is famous, and rich, and married to a hottie, and ... I mean, JC is even building a rocket company. Here's a guy dedicated to the art of engineering, rather than making a cult of personality about himself.

Even if JC was half the programmer DS is (not by any stretch of the imagination), I'd still prefer to listen to what JC has to say due to his non-emotional demeanor.
 
But keep in mind that Parhelia 512 is not exactly top of the line hardware and Matrox never really had much success with optimizing their drivers in the past...

Hmm.. I find that statement to be untrue. They did optimise their drivers for the G400 and for a while were faster than the TNT2 Ultra in 32bit.

Even though Parhelia is not top of the line in performance.. in featureset it is the biggest change any current 3D graphics card designer has had to cater for. Think about it... from G400 to Parhelia.

And even then the initial drivers were not made from scratch.

OpenGL Guy - reading your post about JC almost made me think that you are in love with the skinny dude. Heh!
PS I thought Derek Smart was African English (er whatever!) rather than an American?
 
What I see in this guy's demeanor is simply a short fuse and unjustifiable angst for not getting his way.

Some of what he says is correct- dealing with dev. rel. can be frustrating, especially when you are on an already delayed schedule and can't get a solid answer or resolution to something that is going to put you further in a hole.

I haven't dealt with dev. rel. from the leaders recently, but had similar experiences back in the V1->V3, TNT->Geforce256 days. It was why I often sided with 3dfx from a dev. rel. standpoint, although this went to hell in a handbasket shortly after the V5.

What a developer really *wants* is concise, realistic information concerning issues and not fluff. If I found a problem in a driver, within 24 hours I got a definate answer from 3dfx. Even if it wasnt what I wanted to hear, they sent me the direct answer that made my decision making a no brainer. It wasn't uncommon to get "Yes, it's broken, but the driver team has no intentions or schedule of fixing in the forseeable future" which equated to "start the 3 week work-around schedule" rather than "hop on other content and wait for patch that may never come." This surely beats the limbo of there being a chance of it being fixed in 3-4 weeks, or worse yet a committment to the fix in 3-4 weeks then still not having it fixed 6 weeks later.

With some IHV's, the "run-around" technique is golden. NVIDIA did this constantly with never a confirmation of an issue, but instead an "alternate preferred method to try" which were, in turn, as equally broken. I've heard from collegues they no longer participate in this wild goose chase method of developer support, but for the longest time it was very frustrating to have to drastically (and unelegantly) recode portions just to buy time around a driver bug that was still revealed as broken regardless of approach or method. It left the developer more weeks behind with no resolution, and the firm understanding the the dev. rel. representative knew this from the start but just wanted to buy time for their inept driver developers.

Our in-house CS team had management training that preached this same approach and I vehemently fought against it. The whole old-school method of "giving the client something to do unrelated to the problem to buy time" is the worst way to run customer relations.

While this Derek fellow makes some rather pointed accusations, there is little to no support to define these as real or self inflicted so it's impossible to ascertain the truth behind his claims. For the most part, I see his complaints being ones of frustration and they really don't match ATI's efforts in the past few months. I am definately seeing even *public* confirmations of bugs, issues and even (somewhat loose) committments to fixes at the consumer level. This is pretty unique to 3d hardware providers as when was the last time you saw another IHV come forward and state "XYZ game is confirmed to have lock-up problems" or "wbuffer is totally broken at this stage" etc.etc. ? Consumers love this stuff as it saves them time whacking their registry, re-installing or following the advice of morons that don't even have the hardware claiming the issue is non-issue. It's dangerous because the competition can abuse this (as we are already seeing), but puts the consumer's needs first.

Most IHV's only lay claim to *fixes* after they have been resolved and avoid stating flaws prior to fix. (i.e. VZ.ZZ - fixed issue with Z clipping in game XYZ, etc.etc.).

I like the new angle ATI is taking and I believe it will work well with consumers. A little initial frustration knowing there are existing bugs, but once they realize how convenient it is to *know* what exactly is broken, they will appreciate the time saved from this method.

Just my $0.02,
-Shark
 
Responsiveness to bugs varies over time within every company due to release schedules and commitments. When new products and new features are the priority, bug fixes take a back seat. That's just the reality. You can't paint ATI golden now, and ignore their past, while focusing on NVidia's past problems, but ignoring the current performance. (NVidia dev support is nothing short of excellent at the moment) This smacks of trying to elevate 3dfx and ATI by viewing history through rose colored glasses (as usual) I have the exact opposite experience from NVidia (e.g. "yes, it's broke, we're not planning on fixing it at the moment") Every company that does software, if they aren't total idiots, has a bug tracking database. Incoming bugs are filed into this database, and workarounds (if there are any), are noted.

Not every incoming bug can be examined by an expert to determine the issue. Those have to be queued as well, so responsiveness varies depending on how many bugs are being filed and how fast an engineer can get to it. Some bugs are deemed non-critical and pushed to future releases. That's just a fact of software development. Microsoft shipped XP with like 100,000 known bugs.


As for IHV's running public bug databases, this isn't rare at all. It's in the IHV's best interest to log these and direct customer support to this database instead of clogging the call centers with the same questions over and over.

In short, I don't think ATI's devl rel or driver development process today is any better or worse than NVidia, or others.

Why must every single damn message on this board become some kind of Nvidia vs ATI vs 3dfx vs whatever comparison. It's not just hardware, but software, PR, website, customer support, etc. If people had access to NVidia and ATI's employee cafeteria, they'd be flaming about the differences as well.

It's getting tiresome.
 
Heh, I love DS complaints about being low on the priority list. I mean, I don't think bugs I report would be prioritized higher than his, yet every time I've reported a bug it has been confirmed, fixed and reported back to me withing a week or two (except for a rendering to cubemap bug that still hasn't been fixed). Somehow I doubt ATi's TODO list looks like this:
1) Fix Carmack's bug.
2) Fix Humus' bug.
...
...
237) Fix Derek's Bug

:LOL:
 
misae said:
OpenGL Guy - reading your post about JC almost made me think that you are in love with the skinny dude. Heh!
Uh, what post are you referring to? Maybe you are thinking of Democoder's post above?
 
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