Cure yourself from homosexuality!

[Vince]

Can you train a homosexual to be heterosexual?

Yes, considering it's possible to make someone who loves certain foods hate them, and vice versa.

In fact, some peoples' orientations can change as they grow older (I've seen this happen among some friends' relatives) - not drastically, of course, but like... a normally bisexual individual might favour one gender over the other in their teens, then shift the other way toward their 20's and 30's... then possibly back the other way later on.

Likewise taste in foods can vary.

Exactly, very close to what I'm saying. I went beyond you by saying it's a fuck-up or bad strategy in terms of nature (I see this as obvious but whatever) and I compared it to other conditions like OCD which are retrainable and caused by things I'd guess, if asked, that are somewhat similar to homosexuality overall - and then stated that if it is a condition which is post-genetic in origion, perhaps we can "fix it." Which is what the article talked about somewhat. But, what do I know, I'm just a Nazi... well atleast I'm moving up from getting my throat slashed j/k

 

[Legion]

Oh, and my chocolate analogy was more focused toward why homosexuality even exists.

What is the biological basis, if any, for homosexuality?

Such has not be determined.

Probably about the same one for whether or not you like chocolate.

Whether or not you like chocolate is more in depth then a genetic code. You can certainly learn to like anything with exposure (ie mere-exposure or Halo Effect). This is a commonly accepted psychological concept.

Can you train a homosexual to be heterosexual?

Yes, considering it's possible to make someone who loves certain foods hate them, and vice versa.

NARTH claims yes and vice versa.

Sex change operations and patients may provide answers to this vary question.

In fact, some peoples' orientations can change as they grow older (I've seen this happen among some friends' relatives) - not drastically, of course, but like... a normally bisexual individual might favour one gender over the other in their teens, then shift the other way toward their 20's and 30's... then possibly back the other way later on.

Then it is clearly not grounded in genetic predisposition.

Likewise taste in foods can vary.

This analogy falls short of the dynamics of the issue of sexual orientation.

You'd have to explain on a genetic level how one could prefer male or female sexual partners, how genes would preceive this, how they would identify with male or female, etc etc. Since genes are not intelligent we can assume they haven't any form of awareness. With that said, how would they relate such information to your conscious?

 

[Tagrineth]

Exactly, very close to what I'm saying. I went beyond you by saying it's a fuck-up or bad strategy in terms of nature (I see this as obvious but whatever) and I compared it to other conditions like OCD which are retrainable and caused by things I'd guess, if asked, that are somewhat similar to homosexuality overall - and then stated that if it is a condition which is post-genetic in origion, perhaps we can "fix it." Which is what the article talked about somewhat. But, what do I know, I'm just a Nazi... well atleast I'm moving up from getting my throat slashed j/k

Well they way you put it sounded like Hitlerism. (I don't like to call it Nazi because technically the Nazi party didn't exactly run on a platform of genocide)

The real question about what you're saying, though, is would it be right to "fix it" if the homosexual in question was perfectly happy and satisfied with his or her same sex lover, and was not interested in having children one way or another? Much the same as if someone didn't like chocolate... would it be right to train them to hate it?

 

[Vince]

ll they way you put it sounded like Hitlerism. (I don't like to call it Nazi because technically the Nazi party didn't exactly run on a platform of genocide)

Um, no, not exactly. Truth be told, I don't care what Natoma does in life. As far as I'm concerned, if he can find someone who he loves and who loves him back (eww) then God bless him, shit. What I object to is his attempts to use pseudo-science to legitimize it and, in this thread, when people attack legitimite science and questioning based on politics, lack of knowledge and public emotion. That really pisses me off. As does Natoma defending his practices against much of what Joe said because, truthfully, Joes 100% right.

The real question about what you're saying, though, is would it be right to "fix it" if the homosexual in question was perfectly happy and satisfied with his or her same sex lover, and was not interested in having children one way or another? Much the same as if someone didn't like chocolate... would it be right to train them to hate it?

It's a moral issue as you stated it here and I dunno. Which is why I try to keep it strickly biological which we can resort to known mechanisms, like evolution and game theoric strategies to give me an answer.

This analogy falls short of the dynamics of the issue of sexual orientation.

You'd have to explain on a genetic level how one could prefer male or female sexual partners, how genes would preceive this, how they would identify with male or female, etc etc. Since genes are not intelligent we can assume they haven't any form of awareness. With that said, how would they relate such information to your conscious?

Legion, you don't have to get this in depth. Her position would basically fall out of ours as it is. And, truthfully, nobody responds to the actual evidence and solid theory when we state it like this anyways. Besides, I think Tag's somewhat in agreement with us, so instead of questioning her just explain it out, play your cards right and maybe you can convert her to the darkside... haha

 

[Legion]

well i for one am irritated no one responded to my "gay animal" rebuttle.

 

[PeterAce]

The real question about what you're saying, though, is would it be right to "fix it" if the homosexual in question was perfectly happy and satisfied with his or her same sex lover, and was not interested in having children one way or another? Much the same as if someone didn't like chocolate... would it be right to train them to hate it?

Answer : No. It wouldn't be right to try to change them.

Which is why Natoma posted this earlyer :

The only reason I've ever found gay men and women that didn't want to be gay was because of societal pressures. Nothing more, nothing less.

Correct.

Gay rights organisations, the American Psychological Association and Millions of gay people also agree.

 

[Tagrineth]

Whether or not you like chocolate is more in depth then a genetic code. You can certainly learn to like anything with exposure (ie mere-exposure or Halo Effect). This is a commonly accepted psychological concept.

And indeed, some things are harder to change than others. Correct?

NARTH claims yes and vice versa.

Sex change operations and patients may provide answers to this vary question.

Not really.

Most male to female transgender patients identify themselves as lesbian after the change. Go ahead, guess why.

In fact, some peoples' orientations can change as they grow older (I've seen this happen among some friends' relatives) - not drastically, of course, but like... a normally bisexual individual might favour one gender over the other in their teens, then shift the other way toward their 20's and 30's... then possibly back the other way later on.

Then it is clearly not grounded in genetic predisposition.

Nah. Which is exactly what I said a few posts ago. Pay more attention.

This analogy falls short of the dynamics of the issue of sexual orientation.

Not necessarily. What about vegans? They have to go WAY out of their way to get proper nutrition - so they can, yup, you guessed it, survive normally... and not have severe malnutrition problems.

You'd have to explain on a genetic level how one could prefer male or female sexual partners, how genes would preceive this, how they would identify with male or female, etc etc. Since genes are not intelligent we can assume they haven't any form of awareness. With that said, how would they relate such information to your conscious?

Nah. Realistically, explanation on a genetic level is about as relevant as explaning on a genetic level why I hate Hershey's milk chocolate but absolutely LOVE Cadbury's.

 

[Legion]

Gay rights organisations, the American Psychological Association and Millions of gay people also agree.

The same could be said for paedophiles and the like. Its projection.

 

[Vince]

Answer : No. It wouldn't be right to try to change them.

Which is why Natoma posted this earlyer :

The only reason I've ever found gay men and women that didn't want to be gay was because of societal pressures. Nothing more, nothing less.

Correct.

Gay rights organisations, the American Psychological Association and Millions of gay people also agree.

Um, it should also be noted that many OCD and Alchohalics also think they're fine and refuse treatment and/or changing their lives. If Homosexuality is because of enviromentally influences which create artificial biases on certain constructs that put them outside the usual range/tolerances for each sex, then they might not be aware of the problem due to it intrinsically being part of "them." A case could be made that homosexuality is an artificial barrier which is keeping them from experiencing their greater joys of life -- be that childbirth, a wife (with real breasts and no mustache), kids, a family, etc. Just as alchohalism is a social problem keeping these same family values in check, homosexuality *could be*. Again, this is really simplistic, but I think it get the point across better.

 

[Legion]

And indeed, some things are harder to change than others. Correct?

So, i have a video game addiction gene because i am addicted to entertaining video games?

Whether or not it is difficult to erase speaks nothing of genetic predisposition. Erasure, or termination of psychological habit is purely enviromental.

Not really.

Most male to female transgender patients identify themselves as lesbian after the change. Go ahead, guess why.

Yet neurotransmitters in their brains still respond to male androgens in the likeness of male brains.

I questions your suggesting "most" do. Admitting that some do not implies a lot about the nature of gender genetic predisposition.

Nah. Which is exactly what I said a few posts ago. Pay more attention.

Perhaps you ought to pay more attention to the fact alterations do not infer genetic influence.

I am simply reinforcing my argument.

Not necessarily. What about vegans? They have to go WAY out of their way to get proper nutrition - so they can, yup, you guessed it, survive normally... and not have severe malnutrition problems.

What on earth is your point here? Your analogy doesn't even address the issue of explaining a genetic predisposition to a specific orientation.

Nah. Realistically, explanation on a genetic level is about as relevant as explaning on a genetic level why I hate Hershey's milk chocolate but absolutely LOVE Cadbury's.

Realistically its about as impossible, you mean.

 

[John Reynolds]

Hey, let's go a few better: there are rapists who think the women they rape enjoy it. There are child molestors who think they're educating the children they violate. White supremists have "noted" that certain minorities are inferior. And mental masturbation may be the result of having a small penis.

 

[PeterAce]

I am not seeing rebuttles of any kind here wts NARTH's allegations (or the like).

The Exodus International and National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) try to use "Reparative Therapy".

Here are some rebuttals :

Confusion about sexual orientation is not unusual during adolescence. Counseling may be helpful for young people who are uncertain about their sexual orientation or for those who are uncertain about how to express their sexuality and might profit from an attempt at clarification through a counseling or psychotherapeutic initiative. Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.

Bold mine.

Policy Statement: Homosexuality and Adolescence, American Academy of Pediatrics, 1993.

The potential risks of "reparative therapy" are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone "reparative therapy" relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.

Position Statement: Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation, American Psychiatric Association, 1998.

These rebuttals and more about "Reparative Therapy" here :

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html#2

I surgest your read the whole document :

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html

 

[Vince]

PeterAce, I think we're all well enough educated to know what your posting there. We also know the current state of psychology and, personally, know the extent to which we can map physiological brain states to the so-called 'mental' states. Even the best tools we have, be them fMRI or PET don't tell us a whole lot outside of relative activation levels of aggregate areas during some period T, during which there are some almost N possible processing happening on a molecular level. It's insane. We're basically at the beginning of a journey into this field and we're staring at a dark hole with no clue what lies before us. It's going to take the equivalent of the Human Genome Project just to understand the physical connectionist features of the brain and then actually using that knowledge and comprehending the system holistically will occupy us for decades.

So, to many, what the American Psychiatric Association or American Academy of Pediatrics states on their public website in an FAQ means just about nothing.

 

[PeterAce]

Um, it should also be noted that many OCD and Alchohalics also think they're fine and refuse treatment and/or changing their lives. If Homosexuality is because of enviromentally influences which create artificial biases on certain constructs that put them outside the usual range/tolerances for each sex, then they might not be aware of the problem due to it intrinsically being part of "them." A case could be made that homosexuality is an artificial barrier which is keeping them from experiencing their greater joys of life -- be that childbirth, a wife (with real breasts and no mustache), kids, a family, etc. Just as alchohalism is a social problem keeping these same family values in check, homosexuality *could be*. Again, this is really simplistic, but I think it get the point across better.

Poor comparison.

OCD and alchohalism is obviously harmful to such indervidual. Homosexuality is not.

Let me just re-quote one of you points :

A case could be made that homosexuality is an artificial barrier which is keeping them from experiencing their greater joys of life -- be that childbirth, a wife (with real breasts and no mustache), kids, a family,

A very weak case above as - I already have some and (may expand in our future) your "great joys of life" I'm :

- In Love with my parner/boyfirend of 5 years.
- We (as soon it is legal in the UK) will get Married (Civil Union to be accurate).
- We may adopt and bring-up childen in the future.

 

[PeterAce]

PeterAce, I think we're all well enough educated to know what your posting there. We also know the current state of psychology and, personally, know the extent to which we can map physiological brain states to the so-called 'mental' states. Even the best tools we have, be them fMRI or PET don't tell us a whole lot outside of relative activation levels of aggregate areas during some period T, during which there are some almost N possible processing happening on a molecular level. It's insane. We're basically at the beginning of a journey into this field and we're staring at a dark hole with no clue what lies before us. It's going to take the equivalent of the Human Genome Project just to understand the physical connectionist features of the brain and then actually using that knowledge and comprehending the system holistically will occupy us for decades.

So, to many, what the American Psychiatric Association or American Academy of Pediatrics states on their public website in an FAQ means just about nothing.

So your just going to dismiss - the 477,000 health and mental health professionals that have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a "cure."

 

[Vince]

Poor comparison.

OCD and alchohalism is obviously harmful to such indervidual. Homosexuality is not.

Poor thinking on your part. Playing devil's advocate, How many people die of actual alchohalism intoxication? How many die of the secondary effects from it in car accidents, fights, et al?

Dare I post the proportional comparasons of Homosexuality and death rates against Heterosexuals? You just know Homosexulity, like Alchohalism, might be fun, but the residual effects are like a bastion for STD trasmission in the subculture.

Let me just re-quote one of you points :

A very weak case above as - I already have some and (may expand in our future) your "great joys of life" I'm :

- In Love with my parner/boyfirend of 5 years.
- We (as soon it is legal in the UK) will get Married (Civil Union to be accurate).
- We may adopt and bring-up childen in the future.

Actually, your list is just as week, we can go around and 'round and state that since you're suffering from the so called "varience" you really oon't understand the feelings and what it's like and what your missing.

 

[Legion]

Here are some rebuttals :

Confusion about sexual orientation is not unusual during adolescence. Counseling may be helpful for young people who are uncertain about their sexual orientation or for those who are uncertain about how to express their sexuality and might profit from an attempt at clarification through a counseling or psychotherapeutic initiative. Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.

Bold mine.

Doesn't seem to be a very substantial rebuttle at all. They aren't addressing issue of possible change they are only suggesting it could have negative side effects.



Policy Statement: Homosexuality and Adolescence, American Academy of Pediatrics, 1993.

The potential risks of "reparative therapy" are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone "reparative therapy" relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.

Again, this does not address the issue of whether or not a change in orientation can take place. It is simply a manner in which to demonize the procedure.

Its rather obvious the APA has a pro-gay agenda it has had such for over 31 years. I'd personally, take everything they have to say with a grain of salt.

If a homosexual can alter his orientation then the concept of genetic disposition has been refuted.

Position Statement: Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation, American Psychiatric Association, 1998.

These rebuttals and more about "Reparative Therapy" here :

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html#2

As i said before, i will take their "research" with a grain of salt.

I surgest your read the whole document :

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html

I am pretty well versed in the modern theories of sexual orientation. Notice, if you read through the articles concerning sexual orientation they never imples it is strictly genetic. Infact, they go as far to say mainly (if not completely) enviromental in its foundation. It is also stated it has the capacity to change.

 

[Vince]

So your just going to dismiss - the 477,000 health and mental health professionals that have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a "cure."

First off. We already covered the societal influencs on the decisions dating back to the '70s and almost everyone agreed.

Second, have you ever been taught in the medical or associated research field? I think the statistic is that something like 30-50% of what your taught is going to ultimatly be incorrect (I should know this). So, hell yes I shall state that.

Third, how can they make such a clear distinction with the current state of psychology and neurology? Answer: See first point.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Well, I'm a big boy, I can take your post I hope. So, just as I nicely explained the position; perhaps you can reciprocate and explain to me where my post on self-organization (which you said was stupid and wrong) went wrong. I'm eagerly awaiting your post. Thanks.

I understood just fine what you said, but it makes no sense applied to the matter at hand.

 

[nelg]

Whether or not you like chocolate is more in depth then a genetic code.

Well it could be argued that evolution has imbued us with an attraction to foods with a higher energy density. Besides, if you don't like chocolate you are, IMO, genetically F***ked up.