Could there be any PS3 games with no AA?

[Farid]

AA being costly from a bandwidth point of view, I expect a lot of PS3 games to use no AA at all.

With time passing by some developers, mainly first partiy, I guess, might try some exotic partial implementation, on a shader level, like the one demonstrated by Humus, here.

PD0 has AA, it has software AA

It's an image space vectorial motion blur effect.
It does indeed aleviate some aliasing problem, as it blurs parts of the visible screen, but it can't be qualified as software AA, which is one of the term used for SuperSampling AA.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well, then how come the jaggies in PD0 are actually worse in motion, and best when you are not moving? How come the objects are always the cleanest in the middle of my field of view?

It's not just motion blur, motion blur would correct aliasing on outsides of the screen which is exactly the opposite of what happens in PD0. It would also only be present when in motion, which is not at all what happens in PD0.

I've played many PC games with no AA, and when you walk up to an object in PD0 it has AA without a doubt, and you do not need to be moving, it in fact looks better when not in motion and directly centered on the screen.

 

[Rolf N]

Well, then how come the jaggies in PD0 are actually worse in motion, and best when you are not moving? How come the objects are always the cleanest in the middle of my field of view?

It's not just motion blur, motion blur would correct aliasing on outsides of the screen which is exactly the opposite of what happens in PD0. It would also only be present when in motion, which is not at all what happens in PD0.

I've played many PC games with no AA, and when you walk up to an object in PD0 it has AA without a doubt, and you do not need to be moving, it in fact looks better when not in motion and directly centered on the screen.

From what you describe it sounds like it might be something similar to what ATI calls "temporal AA" on the PC. I.e. sampling postions are slightly varied on a frame-per-frame basis.

Name one. There are no 360 games without AA to my knowldege.

Project Gotham Racing 3 ... ingame. Photo/Garage modes appear to have AA but ingame graphics don't.

 

[scooby_dooby]

PGR has 2xAA. That's why the resolution had to be lowered, to fit it all in one tile.

PGR3 is pretty good for having no jaggies, what it has is a really bad 'shimmer' effect on the gaur rails, also you can see minor jaggies on the spoilers and stuff. Definately 2xAA though, with a low resolution like that no AA would be immediately obvious.

I don't know where this little myth came from, there are no 360 games without at least 2xAA or the equivalent(like PD0).

 

[joebloggs]

PGR has 2xAA. That's why the resolution had to be lowered, to fit it all in one tile.

PGR3 is pretty good for having no jaggies, what it has is a really bad 'shimmer' effect on the gaur rails, also you can see minor jaggies on the spoilers and stuff. Definately 2xAA though, with a low resolution like that no AA would be immediately obvious.

I don't know where this little myth came from, there are no 360 games without at least 2xAA or the equivalent(like PD0).

There is a video of a PDZ rep stating there is no AA in PDZ because it "wasn't entirely free" - so either what you're seeing is some other effect or AA was added at the last minute.

Maybe someone's got a link to the video - I'm sure it was posted on these boards.
I'll investigate..

 

[Mmmkay]

Ridge Racer 6 doesn't have any AA.

[edited for clarity]


RR6 Source: Here
PGR3 [600p] Source: Here

I adjusted the orientation of the PGR3 shot so as to show edges that are at the same angle.

 

[scooby_dooby]

There is a video of a PDZ rep stating there is no AA in PDZ because it "wasn't entirely free" - so either what you're seeing is some other effect or AA was added at the last minute.

Maybe someone's got a link to the video - I'm sure it was posted on these boards.
I'll investigate..

Don't worry about it, I've seen it, he's at x05 or something demoing the game when he gets asked. The guy was duncam botwood, in charge of the multiplayer side of the game, maybe he was referring to MP?

I dunno, I'm just sayin what I see with my own two eyes.

Also, that's not really what PGR3 looks like on the TV, it looks much more like this:
http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/655/655559/x05-new-project-gotham-racing-3-images-20051003093644841.jpg
or this:
http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2005/321/reviews/927245_20051118_screen010.jpg

And my TV's pretty sharp, I get more jaggies in the PGR3 menu than I do sitting in the interior of the car. Maybe BlimBlim took that shot from the framebuffer before AA was applied, not sure...

 

[Mmmkay]

And my TV's pretty sharp, I get more jaggies in the PGR3 menu than I do sitting in the interior of the car. Maybe BlimBlim took that shot from the framebuffer before AA was applied, not sure...

That definitely looks like 2xAA to me, I don't know what your expectations are.

 

[scooby_dooby]

The jaggies along the bottom edge of the windshield are definately worse than it looks in-game, the rest of the screen looks the same.

Maybe it's just that car, i just took a spin and was mainly looking at that bottom edge, and it's quite clean, but i'm drivin the lambo.

 

[Mmmkay]

The jaggies along the bottom edge of the windshield are definately worse than it looks in-game, the rest of the screen looks the same.

Maybe it's just that car, i just took a spin and was mainly looking at that bottom edge, and it's quite clean, but i'm drivin the lambo.

Well that's just part and parcel of the upscaling process. Things like the 'white' aliasing marks on cars are much more noticable imho.

Anyway, it's well known that PGR3 uses 2xAA and that image comparison was for the sake of demonstrating that RR6 does not feature any AA as well you know

 

[Nicked]

I think the hit on system performance is being taken out-of-proportions. Its still only a fraction of system performance.
PS3s traditional solution for AA may be more preferable than X360s in the end.

But yeah, some games definitely could not have it, but I really doubt it tbh, since at that point 'port-ups' should be out of fashion. Well, alot of smaller JPN games probably wont use it.

MGS4 used some blur effect around all the objects in the trailer though, not noticeable at all (to me) watching it, but definitely its evident if you take screen-caps at certain points (mostly where he is outside). One of the most impressive things in the trailer to me was Mk. II's IQ.

 

[dukmahsik]

I think the hit on system performance is being taken out-of-proportions. Its still only a fraction of system performance.
PS3s traditional solution for AA may be more preferable than X360s in the end.

But yeah, some games definitely could not have it, but I really doubt it tbh, since at that point 'port-ups' should be out of fashion. Well, alot of smaller JPN games probably wont use it.

MGS4 used some blur effect around all the objects in the trailer though, not noticeable at all (to me) watching it, but definitely its evident if you take screen-caps at certain points (mostly where he is outside). One of the most impressive things in the trailer to me was Mk. II's IQ.

why is it preferable?

 

[tema]

To get the \"free\" 4xAA you must do tiling. Tiling causes a heavy hit in geometry perf IIRC.

 

[scooby_dooby]

To get the \"free\" 4xAA you must do tiling. Tiling causes a heavy hit in geometry perf IIRC.

Ya, 5% is such a heavy hit for 4xAA...

 

[tema]

geometry...polygons..ya? The 5% is the theoretical framerates hit.

 

[Titanio]

Ya, 5% is such a heavy hit for 4xAA...

The hit is going to be variable, depending on the game.

ATi gave no indication of how they came upon that number. Is it a best case, worst case, average case? Is it a figure that can be derived mathematically, or something they got from experiment? If the latter, how reliable is that when they had no real game software at the time to measure that from?

Or did they just pluck from the air as an estimate?

It seems to me the hit is not only a function of the game's characteristics, but also, and perhaps more importantly, the quality of the (tiling) implementation.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I agree, we've seen that evidence already. When implemented properly though, according to ATI it's 5% hit or less, I'm pretty sure they did not just pull that out of their ass.

Point was Tema was completely exagerating, like usual. The hit is small, especially compared to conventional AA techniques.

 

[!eVo!-X Ant UK]

why is it preferable?

Maybe because its easy'r to implement, developerment wise

 

[dukmahsik]

Maybe because its easy'r to implement, developerment wise

ur saying AA on ps3 is easier to implement than on 360?

 

[supervegeta]

Maybe because its easy'r to implement, developerment wise

As far i know is more easy to implement AA + HDR on the xbox360 then on the ps3.

The next Motogp is 60fps + 4xaa + hdr.