Could Dreamcast et al handle this/that game/effect? *DC tech retrospective *spawn

[TapamN]

Someone on Reddit wanted a VGA code for PAL RECV. That sounded like a 15 minute job (I've done other VGA patches), so I made one quick. I went to do a quick test, and something seemed wrong with the menu on the title screen, the selection would change so fast, it was hard to pick the New Game option. Even briefly pressing on the d-pad would cause the selection to zoom past it. When I managed to select it, the opening text crawl was going really fast. Wait a sec, that's 60 FPS... Was that supposed to be 60 FPS? The intro FMV ran at 30 FPS, as it should have, then, in game...

It was 60 FPS, running double speed.

Oops, I accidentally created a code for running Code Veronica at an uncapped framerate.

I thought there would be people here would be interested in experimenting with RECV at 60 FPS, so the Codebreaker code (for English PAL) is 0f010126 0000e401. It's supposed to be a VGA patch, so you're going to have to use a VGA cable when playing. For the tiny bit at the beginning I tried, it actually does ok, aside from the more alpha heavy sections (rain, fire).

Actually, I also patched Sonic Adventure 2 to (try to) run at 60 FPS in two player a while ago. The game really couldn't handle it on the racing and hunting stages (Meteor Herd had trouble hitting 30, I think the problem is inefficient collision detection), but the single screen mech fights did run at a stable 60 FPS, except for small occasional drops on Weapon Bed. Kart racing would sometimes hit 60 when there weren't many CPU cars visible.

 

[EsppiraK]

Someone on Reddit wanted a VGA code for PAL RECV. That sounded like a 15 minute job (I've done other VGA patches), so I made one quick. I went to do a quick test, and something seemed wrong with the menu on the title screen, the selection would change so fast, it was hard to pick the New Game option. Even briefly pressing on the d-pad would cause the selection to zoom past it. When I managed to select it, the opening text crawl was going really fast. Wait a sec, that's 60 FPS... Was that supposed to be 60 FPS? The intro FMV ran at 30 FPS, as it should have, then, in game...

It was 60 FPS, running double speed.

Oops, I accidentally created a code for running Code Veronica at an uncapped framerate.

I thought there would be people here would be interested in experimenting with RECV at 60 FPS, so the Codebreaker code (for English PAL) is 0f010126 0000e401. It's supposed to be a VGA patch, so you're going to have to use a VGA cable when playing. For the tiny bit at the beginning I tried, it actually does ok, aside from the more alpha heavy sections (rain, fire).

Actually, I also patched Sonic Adventure 2 to (try to) run at 60 FPS in two player a while ago. The game really couldn't handle it on the racing and hunting stages (Meteor Herd had trouble hitting 30, I think the problem is inefficient collision detection), but the single screen mech fights did run at a stable 60 FPS, except for small occasional drops on Weapon Bed. Kart racing would sometimes hit 60 when there weren't many CPU cars visible.

What is the equivalent in memory address to 0f010126? is that encrypted CB code? should it be 02010126? Because it does not work using cheat engine.

 

[TapamN]

What is the equivalent in memory address to 0f010126? is that encrypted CB code? should it be 02010126? Because it does not work using cheat engine.

It's a regular Codebreaker code. Codebreaker codes are never encrypted, which is why everyone uses those over GameShark or Action Replay. The 0f at the beginning means it's a code to patch one instruction (16-bits) in the main binary (1ST_READ.BIN on most games) before executing it. So after loading the game's binary, but before running it, it replaces two bytes at 0x010126 in main RAM with 01 E4. If it started with 02, the code would replace 4 bytes in RAM, and it would likely kick in after the video has been initialized and have no effect.

If you want to patch a GDI image, at address 0x126 of 1ST_READ.BIN, change 42 64 to 01 E4.

But doing the patch on an emulator seems kind of pointless; it's just going to run the game at double speed since DC emulators don't even pretend to be cycle accurate, so the emulated CPU and GPU are effectively overclocked. On real hardware you can actually see how the DC and the game engine can handle different sections of the game.

 

[EsppiraK]

It's a regular Codebreaker code. Codebreaker codes are never encrypted, which is why everyone uses those over GameShark or Action Replay. The 0f at the beginning means it's a code to patch one instruction (16-bits) in the main binary (1ST_READ.BIN on most games) before executing it. So after loading the game's binary, but before running it, it replaces two bytes at 0x010126 in main RAM with 01 E4. If it started with 02, the code would replace 4 bytes in RAM, and it would likely kick in after the video has been initialized and have no effect.

If you want to patch a GDI image, at address 0x126 of 1ST_READ.BIN, change 42 64 to 01 E4.

But doing the patch on an emulator seems kind of pointless; it's just going to run the game at double speed since DC emulators don't even pretend to be cycle accurate, so the emulated CPU and GPU are effectively overclocked. On real hardware you can actually see how the DC and the game engine can handle different sections of the game.

I just want to see if I can find a speed mofier in the game so it runs at 60 fps @1x speed

 

[TapamN]

I just want to see if I can find a speed mofier in the game so it runs at 60 fps @1x speed

Oh, ok. That makes sense then.

 

[Davros]

Maybe try and decouple the framerate from the physics engine or get it to update every 2 frames instead of one

 

[Cloofoofoo]

The PS2 was such an unconventional beast and such a pain to squeeze it's capabilities when it launched. But it didn't take long to mindblow us with TTT, RRV, SH2,GT3, DMC and MGS2.
Man these visuals were a whole new revelation. Even Namco didn't top TTT's graphics after that release. That game had visuals that no other game replicated in PS2's whole generation Materials looked like PBR when such thing didn't exist in real time game graphics

Eh that's a bit of an exaggeration on ttt. That exact same technique is used extensively on soul Calibur 2 player models to make it seem like different material speculars depending on the section on the model. All it really was different type of environment maps to give each thing it's own specific look. That's not even sophisticated like you seem to be praising, merely clever. They actually turned it up on soul Calibur 3 with more use of it including some stages ( burning mansion walls). It definitely did play to PS2 strength though.

 

[Cloofoofoo]

GC was theoretically more powerful than the PS2. It wasn't just polygons on characters though. MGS2 featured a lot of post processing effects, lots of heavy physics and particle effects, dynamic shadows with variable opacity based on distance and angle of light source, all kinds of reflective surfaces etc. All at 60fps. Surely porting the textures and static polygons is one thing. Replicating all of it is another.
Surely a version of MGS2 could have been made. But I would expect a lot of heavy compromises to maintain 60fps

Especially during the first part of the game with the heavy weather effects and wind, I am very sure that the compromises would have been so big that it would have lost its impact completely. The heavy particle based wheather might have probably kneeled the DC. Even the XBOX struggled in the first section

It doesn't have to . Heck even some modern ports of mgs2 such as vita run heavily 30 fps locked in a lot of the overall ( switch to 60 fps in very empty areas, some indoors area still run 30 fps!) With no issues to gameplay and let's not forget mgs3 on 3ds 12 fps to 20 fps( averages 15 fps). Both playable. 30 fps especially In the dc case would give it the breathing room to get base of the game up and running. Surprisingly I think it might have an easier time with twin snakes since it's actually for the most part lower than 2. The whole shadows fading in and out are also in some dc games it's nothing new.

Again it feels like an exaggeration on some of your points like the rain especially when you look at the og Xbox version vs Vita vs PS2 vs PC vs modern ports. The same rain effects are either missing or super simplified with little impact to the game cinematic aspect or gameplay. Also being clever does come in handy, headhunter on the dc did a similar rain scene with a simpler way( I suspect) it's just particles on the player character / floor and some sort of mesh/quad that follows the player is scrolling in for animated ( again just from watching it is my guess how it's done). it's really good in motion, much denser than this still.

 

[Nesh]

It doesn't have to . Heck even some modern ports of mgs2 such as vita run heavily 30 fps locked in a lot of the overall ( switch to 60 fps in very empty areas, some indoors area still run 30 fps!) With no issues to gameplay and let's not forget mgs3 on 3ds 12 fps to 20 fps( averages 15 fps). Both playable. 30 fps especially In the dc case would give it the breathing room to get base of the game up and running. Surprisingly I think it might have an easier time with twin snakes since it's actually for the most part lower than 2. The whole shadows fading in and out are also in some dc games it's nothing new.

Again it feels like an exaggeration on some of your points like the rain especially when you look at the og Xbox version vs Vita vs PS2 vs PC vs modern ports. The same rain effects are either missing or super simplified with little impact to the game cinematic aspect or gameplay. Also being clever does come in handy, headhunter on the dc did a similar rain scene with a simpler way( I suspect) it's just particles on the player character / floor and some sort of mesh/quad that follows the player is scrolling in for animated ( again just from watching it is my guess how it's done). it's really good in motion, much denser than this still.

You forget that PS Vita is significantly more powerful than the DC and Headhunter's rain doesn't look anything as good as the image here conveys. The experience is different in handhelds and there are cutbacks that are not visible on small screens. If 15fps is how you want to game on console then fine

 

[Nesh]

Eh that's a bit of an exaggeration on ttt. That exact same technique is used extensively on soul Calibur 2 player models to make it seem like different material speculars depending on the section on the model. All it really was different type of environment maps to give each thing it's own specific look. That's not even sophisticated like you seem to be praising, merely clever. They actually turned it up on soul Calibur 3 with more use of it including some stages ( burning mansion walls). It definitely did play to PS2 strength though.

Not at all at the same level as TTT

 

[Cloofoofoo]

You forget that PS Vita is significantly more powerful than the DC and Headhunter's rain doesn't look anything as good as the image here conveys. The experience is different in handhelds and there are cutbacks that are not visible on small screens. If 15fps is how you want to game on console then fine

Let's not pretend ps2 top game shadow of the Colossus average frame rate isn't 20 fps (fact) and ranges from 14 to 60 fps. Glorious game , so yea people obviously don't mind even on a big screen as long as it's responsive enough.

It doesn't have to look the best just has to be a drop in replacement is my point. Heck they could do what they did in some ports and COMPLETELY altered it.( Along with some other graphics if you look up what they altered). And that's from big screen experiencesv, vita actually kept the rain intact lol.

Not at all at the same level as TTT

Well it's on the same level , armors , hair , weapons clothing, emblems on clothes , stage bits. All the while while doing all those framebuffer effects and twice as dense character models. So it's doing way more even.

 

[Nesh]

Let's not pretend ps2 top game shadow of the Colossus average frame rate isn't 20 fps (fact) and ranges from 14 to 60 fps. Glorious game , so yea people obviously don't mind even on a big screen as long as it's responsive enough.

It doesn't have to look the best just has to be a drop in replacement is my point. Heck they could do what they did in some ports and COMPLETELY remove it.( Along with some other graphics if you look up what they removed). And that's from big screen experiencesv, vita actually kept the rain lol.

Surely if you want MGS at 15fps with effects cut, why not?
Nobody questioned that such a version is undoable on the DC

Well it's on the same level , armors , hair , weapons clothing, emblems on clothes , stage bits. All the while while doing all those framebuffer effects and twice as dense character models. So it's doing way more even.

Although it can depict different materials none of the materials approximate anything that closes to BPR as much as TTT does

 

[Sonicfan]

Obviously there would be cuts to 30fps, and lowered fillrate fx, but it wouldn't be as drastic as you're making it out to be, @Nesh

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Surely if you want MGS at 15fps with effects cut, why not?
Nobody questioned that such a version is undoable on the DC



Although it can depict different materials none of the materials approximate anything that closes to BPR as much as TTT does

Why would it be 15? Geometry wise it can handle it just fine at 30 fps. Especially indoors and enemies aren't as high as you'd think.

It doesn't matter it's still the same technique by the same company even used the same way. In the case of ttt vs sc3. Not sure what the argument is.

 

[Nesh]

Why would it be 15? Geometry wise it can handle it just fine at 30 fps. Especially indoors and enemies aren't as high as you'd think.

Geometry and textures aren't what made MGS2 striking visually. But sure if you want to strip down the game to just that, it's doable Nobody argued that

It doesn't matter it's still the same technique by the same company even used the same way. In the case of ttt vs sc3. Not sure what the argument is.

Pretty obvious just by looking at the two games.



This is also shared by DF

15:00 never matched again on PS2. The game had a striking CGI'Ish presentation that Soul Calibur or any game on PS2 never replicated. What matters is the final result which is unique to TTT

 

[EsppiraK]

Geometry and textures aren't what made MGS2 striking visually. But sure if you want to strip down the game to just that, it's doable Nobody argued that

Pretty obvious just by looking at the two games.
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This is also shared by DF

15:00 never matched again on PS2. The game had a striking CGI'Ish presentation that Soul Calibur or any game on PS2 never replicated. What matters is the final result which is unique to TTT

Yes TTT do some cool things with lights and parallax, no other game replicated even on the ps2

 

[Cloofoofoo]

Geometry and textures aren't what made MGS2 striking visually. But sure if you want to strip down the game to just that, it's doable Nobody argued that

Pretty obvious just by looking at the two games.
View attachment 11511
View attachment 11512

This is also shared by DF

15:00 never matched again on PS2. The game had a striking CGI'Ish presentation that Soul Calibur or any game on PS2 never replicated. What matters is the final result which is unique to TTT

So you picked ps3 version of ttt and a blurry pic of sc3 to prove your point ? Let's bring sc3 character to same clarity of that ttt screen. As you can see from rock body they used different env map to make his body skin look sweaty/ shiny different env from say his tusk and metal trunk to look like polished metal. The girl in the pink kimono does the same thing , different envvmap to make the clothing look like silk compared to say her metal tiara or earrings. Exactly same technique used in ttt for character costumes and such . And variations of these on floors and such to make it look shiny and whatnot. It's pretty but this stuff was used over and over after ttt, it's bullshit with this whole unmatched stuff. Tiny square 64x64/32x32f different opacity to make different " material"'effects. The whole dojo floor thing might even be a more limited version of this they probably blend the floor a certain in limited direction to give that controlled "specular". heck they can even do it on emblems sperate from the rest of the clothing, it's very interesting what namco did.

On the topic of mgs2 not sure why you're fixated like it wouldn't be lit , textured and animated fine on dc at 30 fps. You might even have some radial blur effects for cutscenes. That kind of effect isn't so expensive on dc as let's say dof or bloom .

Sc3 examples:

 

[Nesh]

So you picked ps3 version of ttt and a blurry pic of sc3 to prove your point ? Let's bring sc3 character to same clarity of that ttt screen. As you can see from rock body they used different env map to make his body skin look sweaty/ shiny different env from say his tusk and metal trunk to look like polished metal. The girl in the pink kimono does the same thing , different envvmap to make the clothing look like silk compared to say her metal tiara or earrings. Exactly same technique used in ttt for character costumes and such . And variations of these on floors and such to make it look shiny and whatnot. It's pretty but this stuff was used over and over after ttt, it's bullshit with this whole unmatched stuff. Tiny square 64x64/32x32f different opacity to make different " material"'effects. The whole dojo floor thing might even be a more limited version of this they probably blend the floor a certain in limited direction to give that controlled "specular". heck they can even do it on emblems sperate from the rest of the clothing, it's very interesting what namco did.

On the topic of mgs2 not sure why you're fixated like it wouldn't be lit , textured and animated fine on dc at 30 fps. You might even have some radial blur effects for cutscenes. That kind of effect isn't so expensive on dc as let's say dof or bloom .

Sc3 examples:

Even the best examples you choose for SC3 still show the same discrepancy of material quality between TTT and SC3 that SC3 didn't match. DF also has the same impression, that NAMCO never matched such a presentation again.

As for your MGS2 I still don't understand your point. A severely downgraded version of the game sure we agree is possible on DC.

 

[Sonicfan]

What's the debate here? Yes, the technique was used again. No, it wasn't used the same way as ttt. Yes sc3 is overall a better looking game than ttt. I don't get where the debate is here

 

[Nesh]

Ask the guy who started the debate