Consoles & Propoganda

[TheChefO]

I don't know how often you run into a job where the *code* takes up a huge chunk of a 256k block since you're not going to put an entire *application* on either one all at once. The SPEs can put anything in their 256k block, and you can DMA anything including code to that local store on demand. It basically counts as a cache miss once again when you need to do so. The PPE has its 32K L1 instruction cache and it sees instruction cache misses all the same.

You might have fewer misses on the PPE than the SPE, so if continuous feeds of data or the use of far function pointers is a common thing for your codebase, you could have some issues. And how hard that hits you performance wise is a matter of how early you make a "prefetch" or equivalent.

If you've got a single job that needs some 300k of code (which is a hell of a lot), then you definitely need to break it up... but that's different from not being able to run all 300k of that code at all.

If you have a small block of code that works on 1 MB of data, that simply means going through it in smaller chunks at a time and fetching over the DMA while you're going through data further down the line so that you never have to wait. This is actually not that unusual since it was something people did on the PS2 VUs all the time and you only had 4k/16k on them.

Thank you SMM. :smile:

Interesting.

 

[Carl B]

edited ... ok so like you said "most" and that is exactly what I was saying ... there are instances where xcpu can perform better than cell.

Ok, you're still not getting it, but we'll leave it alone. You don't have to agree with me, but I want to be unequivicol in what I'm saying here: the Cell is superior to the XeCPU - they are not 'balanced' chips.

The tradeoff? Cell is harder to program for; but let the myth of "general purpose" die the death it needs to. (did you read that thread yet?)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Doesn't the larger "cache/local store" also enable a more complex program to be run on the ppe (512k) vs the spe (256k)?

I don't know how often you run into a job where the *code* takes up a huge chunk of a 256k block since you're not going to put an entire *application* on either one all at once.

(Okay, I am not debating here! Just contributing some info!)
People don't seem to realize how much 256 KB is, in this age of 1/2 GB RAM - there's no context. 256 KB is as much as the original Amiga launched with; a computer that could do graphics, word-processing, music editing, ray-tracing etc. It's memory was limiting, mostly because you didn't have much room for data. There weren't any applications it couldn't do due to lack of room for code.

256 KB of code is an extraordinary amount for a task. Unless you're trying to run full applications (and you could get a nice graphics editor into 256 KB...) with zillions of features, your greatest concern by far will be streaming data.

 

[TheChefO]

Ok, you're still not getting it, but we'll leave it alone. You don't have to agree with me, but I want to be unequivicol in what I'm saying here: the Cell is superior to the XeCPU - they are not 'balanced' chips with even 'tradeoffs.'

Agreed! I never said otherwise! I said ~ balanced platforms. :smile:

I do get it ... it isn't a hard limitation ... data must be constantly streamed-in ("fed") and must be done carefully to make sure there are not stalls where the chip is waiting on data that is not in the local store. Yes?

But at the same time the larger data pool (ram) is not as fast as the local store, so careful management of this operation is important.

 

[Deusp]

Interesting. I don't buy it though.

If that were the case and the LS size had zero effect on the end product, why didn't they shoot for 128k/spe? They could have saved a significan't chunk of die space!

I'm not a programmer and don't know the ins and outs but I do know enough to realize that larger fast local storage can enable certain things which would not be possible with a smaller storage pool. Otherwise they would have saved themselves the die space and produced 128k or 64k LS/spe.

Anyway since I can't refute this with fact and nobody else wants to chime in that knows better, I'll just leave it at that.

edited ... ok so like you said "most" and that is exactly what I was saying ... there are instances where xcpu can perform better than cell. I've said it I don't know how many times: Cell is better overall and I expect to see the reults of this better design at some point in the ps3's life. However this chip will also have to help the inferior gpu of ps3 to compete with xb360 so this will limit this advantage.

Now about my other question(s)...

The LS RAM is no different from the cache in a convention processor, only that the code has to manually handle accesses. And the more cache you have, the better performance you will get because it reduces the number of main memory accesses. The same is true for LS RAM. I also imagine it makes things easier to work with for the programmer.

 

[TheChefO]

The LS RAM is no different from the cache in a convention processor, only that the code has to manually handle accesses. And the more cache you have, the better performance you will get because it reduces the number of main memory accesses. The same is true for LS RAM. I also imagine it makes things easier to work with for the programmer.

I knew this but thanks for the contribution to the thread. (even though again we are getting into a technical discussion in a propaganda thread but I suppose we can hold the organization police off for a bit longer...)

 

[TheChefO]

Ok so without getting into a detailed discussion on the graphics side; How close would you say these systems are? If we are talking a typical game (pick a popular genre) and the same graphics thrown up on screen by each system: end game, with full optimisation for both platforms, what fps vs what fps in your opinion based on what you know now.

...Hey where did your post go xbd?

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well, read that thread to gain insights into GP.

I'm too lazy!! The point I was trying to make sarcastically is there is really no such thing. Am I wrong?

That's not true though. Again, the PPE cores are better towards models of programming, but not the tasks themselves. Change the method, and tap the SPEs - this will become an increasing part of what happens on the PS3 this gen.

Don't both CPU's require changes in the programming model? Xenon just requires less changes, less work, which is generally what happens with a more flexible piece of HW.

First of all, are PS3 devs having a problem matching the XeCPU with Cell? I'm not hearing that - to my knowledge, the only deficiencies so far are more graphics-related... a GPU rather than CPU issue. Again, the XeCPU benefits from its approachability and its tools - but the actual architecture is no crowd pleaser among devs; ask the 360 devs here their thoughts. Cell will pull away, trust in this. Now whether it will be hamstrung and to what extent if it needs to be helping RSX out w/geometry vs Xenos, I don't know. But it's like this, if it was 2 consoles, Cell and Xenos vs XeCPU and Xenos, the former system would show its merit over the later in a big big way a couple of years after their respective launches, and those differences would be "game code" related.

It's hard to split CPU from GPU, but I think it's safe to assume they are to some degree, given the wide range of ports that have not performed as well. Xenos is not without it's own learning curve as well, while RSX is very traditional, some of the lack of performance must be attributed to problems using CELL imo.

As for the the XeCPU being no crowd pleaser, I know it isn't. But we're talking in relative terms here. If there was a scale, of specialized DSP's at one end, and a x86 type processor on the other (please forgive my horrible examples), I think both CPU's would fall somewhere in the middle. Just that, CELL is further towards being specialized, and as such requires more work when porting traditional game code/subroutines. So, with all of that, I don't think it's wrong to say the PPE is a more general purpose core than the SPE.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

Don't both CPU's require changes in the programming model? Xenon just requires less changes, less work, which is generally what happens with a more flexible piece of HW.

Bollocks (the bolded part). Fewer changes and less work has nothing to do with flexibility -- it's because of familiarity. i.e. there are architectural aspects to it that make it more similar to the status quo. If the majority of programming in the world was done for cluster computing environments, we'd be saying these things about Cell.

And in any case, you're ignoring the fact that reworking for parallel computing platforms is the biggest job of all because the status quo hasn't had that, and that without it, both CPUs are cruel jokes.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Bollocks (the bolded part). Fewer changes and less work has nothing to do with flexibility -- it's because of familiarity. i.e. there are architectural aspects to it that make it more similar to the status quo. If the majority of programming in the world was done for cluster computing environments, we'd be saying these things about Cell.

And in any case, you're ignoring the fact that reworking for parallel computing platforms is the biggest job of all because the status quo hasn't had that, and that without it, both CPUs are cruel jokes.

How am I ignoring it when I stated it in the first sentence? : "Don't both CPU's require changes in the programming model?"

Anyways, I knew that flexibility word would get me in trouble. Not a great choice of words. But in the end, you agree that Xenon has an advantage in that it requires less work because developors are more familiar with it's architecture. End result: It's easier for them to get their games running on it, whether it's due to familiarity or flexibility isn't really important is it?

MS was still correct in pointing out the advantages of having a more 'familiar' CPU, even though it might not win the FLOP race.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

How am I ignoring it when I stated it in the first sentence? : "Don't both CPU's require changes in the programming model?"

I mean you're making it sound as though that difference is offset by the relative familiarities, which is definitely not the case. If anything, it far subsumes it. When you start getting into really tuning your code for parallel computing performance, you'll tend to find that any impact of the relative familiarity of the architectures against single-core PC development is utterly superficial. In the short run, it's a definite advantage for the 360.

 

[Carl B]

It's hard to split CPU from GPU, but I think it's safe to assume they are to some degree, given the wide range of ports that have not performed as well. Xenos is not without it's own learning curve as well, while RSX is very traditional, some of the lack of performance must be attributed to problems using CELL imo.

Scooby I completely agree with you here about Xenos - I think that 360 has a lot of headroom for improvement as well. At the moment Xenos and its eDRAM aren't being dealt with in the fashion MS envisioned (due partly to their own complexities) and I'm thinking there will be a lot we see later this gen attributable to dedicated production efforts on the architecture.

 

[RobertR1]

So now a "consoles and propoganda" thread is turning techincal!? More work for you Carl

Really, in today's age with the Internet, which is relatively new for the media, you'll see all sorts of creative ways to win customers. Some methods will become norm while others will get companies into a lot of trouble, both legally and with consumer confidence.

However, one thing currently sorely missing from the net: accountability. And it's upto us, the consumer, to hold these companies accountable. Slamming MS and Sony and whoever else is perfectly fine considering they use the "throw enough crap at the wall and hope some of it sticks" mentality with us.

 

[SedentaryJourney]

Actually I think this has mostly been a technical discussion with an ideological bent. It's sort of like everyone's picking favourites and justifying what technically makes their platform superior(in the case of PS3), or on-par(Xbox360)--which is exactly how Sony and MS have employed the media this past year. So what's this technical/quasi-media topic still doing in "console games"?

BTW, I must add I think the bullshit has infiltrated the VG news media--just look at Ars. It's also kind of funny how balkanized 1up's coverage is these days, the GDC07 1up show was a testament to this, but in this case me likey.

 

[-tkf-]

Had this been an internetless society, I think fud and spin could have garnered more sales for PS3. But the high price on the box I think pushed people to use the widely available internet to find out what the deal was with this "ps3" and see if it was worth it. Not to say it isn't a good deal, just that people can dispell the hype and see what reality is. Not pr, hype and fud.

The Sony hate started with the XBOX, not the 360, not the KK "FUD", i recall the outrage of the "Tech Demos" from the E3, which all has been outdone by real games. I remember the MGS2 presentation and how long it took for people actually accept it was real time. This was way before there was Such a thing as a Cell CPU and Xenon. I have always had the belief that the first XBOX adaptors were PC gamers and therefore had a strong voice on the net. And slowly that voice became very Vocal, half truths would turn into pure lies. Badly researched stories would hit the net and become fact. I think the best example is the PS2 laser and the 360 Ring Of Death. The PS2 thing was totally unacceptable (i guess it was) and the 360 thing is just life.

That voice is still going strong and you see Websites (respected even) picking it up between their lines. I think that consumer base had a strong saying in what happend on the net, they were stong. Much stronger than Sony boys. Hell i should know, i was one of the first XBOX fans i knew, and one of the first to absolutely hate the idea of Microsoft heading a Console monopoly, working with Microsoft licenses and selling their Software for the last 15 years showed me a pattern

Regarding your take on Hype, it´s exactly what it is, your take. I finally got my PS3 (grrrrrr Sony!) and i must say i´m surprised, i got this little smile on my face when i browse the XMB, import a cd and watches the Slideshow from the 3500+ pics i got on the attached USB drive, HiDef movies and clips, all the stuff that isn´t games just feels so natural and light. And the games do really look like a million dollars.. ehmm ok 900 dollars I really need to try a 360 and see how that can do all this much better.

 

[Tap In]

...I really need to try a 360 and see how that can do all this much better.

no offense tkf, because I like you but you really should try that before making statements like this one.

(not to me i think it dwarfs the competition out there in everything)

these type of statements really require having equal first hand experience with them all to have any merit. IMO


OTOH, congrats on your new purchase I'm glad you finally got the machine that you wanted and are happy. Welcome to Next Gen.

 

[NavNucST3]

no offense tkf, because I like you but you really should try that before making statements like this one.

[snip]

Amazing, when you think that I was able to do all of those things...back in '05, and in '06 it went from "clips" to entire TV Shows and Movies.

 

[-tkf-]

no offense tkf, because I like you but you really should try that before making statements like this one.
these type of statements really require having equal first hand experience with them all to have any merit. IMO
OTOH, congrats on your new purchase I'm glad you finally got the machine that you wanted and are happy. Welcome to Next Gen.

Ohh that looks bad

I have PLAYED the 360 i was not overwhelmed, i havent had a chance to play around with the media stuff. But afaik i cant connect anything external to it? With 20GB i would run out of space very fast

As i said somewhere else, i attached a 250GB USB drive which is filled with clips, pictures and music and i got a nice and very fast MediaCenter, funny enough these features where the last thing on my mind when i bought it, i primarly bought it for one thing (at least until the games start to come) Blu-Ray. After downloading and trying the demos i ended up with a game as well, F1.

So let me repeat myself again, for me the value it is fantastic, it not only dwarfs it destroys anything out there, where else could i get a BluRay player, a Media Center that supports HiDef, supports USB drives and lets me play PS2 and PS3 games.

How does the 360 handle external media? What audio/video codecs does it support? Can you copy media clips to the internal harddrive? What types of Flash cards does it read? How does it browse the video clips you have saved on the Harddrive? Can you redownload the stuff you buy?

 

[aselto]

Today I have played on PS3 finally and i'm not too impressed with the console either. I played Motorstorm, Resistance and RR7. Graphics-wise it definitely has to catch up to 360. Motorstorm is very immersive though.
As for multimedia features, PS3 is definitely more advanced in this department... I really can't answer your questions tkf as I from multimedia features I use only ability to listen to music from pendrive (custom soundtracks ftw) and I also watch trailers from Marketplace, but that's it. I watch DVD on movies using my PC as it offers better quality. But yes, you can redownload things that you once bought.

 

[Falkster]

Ohh that looks bad

I have PLAYED the 360 i was not overwhelmed, i havent had a chance to play around with the media stuff. But afaik i cant connect anything external to it? With 20GB i would run out of space very fast

....

How does the 360 handle external media? What audio/video codecs does it support? Can you copy media clips to the internal harddrive? What types of Flash cards does it read? How does it browse the video clips you have saved on the Harddrive? Can you redownload the stuff you buy?

Actually, you can connect external harddrives to the 360. You just can't copy game saves to it. If you want to view pictures from the external harddrive, just go to media -> pictures. Same thing with videos. I rarely use this feature though since I prefer to stream music and video to my 360, it's just less work and more streamlined. The folder structure remains intact, so browsing is simple.

I'm not sure which audio codecs the 360 supports, it is able to play all my music though so at least the standard codecs are covered. As for video, I believe it can only play wmv files (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken).