COD2 benches..a comparison point?

[pjbliverpool]

I just have to ask the question, if we can't even believe that the PC Editor of 1UP.com is capable of determing the difference between 60FPS and low 30's, 40's and 50's, then why the hell does it matter that every game be at 60FPS?

I mean, it's either noticeable or it's not. It's either important, or it's not. This guy is as close as you can get to an expert in the field, and if he is incapable of telling the difference who IS capable? And why does it matter?

This is a little OT, just wondering how some people can claim 60FPS is "essential for next-gen gaming", then at the same time say that nobody, not even PC game reviewers, can tell the difference between 60FPS and lower.

Frankly I would say its not all that important on consoles as long as the average is high enough so that the minimum under heavy loads doesn't dip below 30fps.

Slower framerates are much more noticible on the PC though where mouse control is much more sentitive to lag.

And regarding your question about not believing the devs, if you can show me a statement from the devs explicitly stating that the game never, ever drops below 60fps then I will accept that for the sake of argument (however I wouldn't bet my life on it being the truth). However to me, a "stable 60fps" does not imply that the game never drops below 60fps. I could read that to mean that the average framerate is 60fps and the minimum is still high enough so that the games percieved framerate remains stable.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I thought we already established that console games are locked at 60FPS due to VSYNCH being enabled in most cases? And if they do drop it's extremely noticeable (i.e. 60 to 30)

 

[kyleb]

No Scooby, that isn't established at all, it isn't even close to how it is as there are a great many console games that are locked at 30fps and then there is triple buffering that alows games to not drop straight from 60 to 30 to 20 like they otherwise would with vsync. Also it doesn't matter if the guy is an editor for PC games or Jesus himself; if he is like you in that he can't tell 30fps from 60fps, then his claim is meaningless.

 

[Shompola]

When vsync is enabled,

You use two back buffers, you update one of them, and if you have time you update the other one wich translates to "smoother" updates/transfers to the actual front buffer if the framerate is not keeping up with the monitors refresh rate.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I thought we already established that console games are locked at 60FPS due to VSYNCH being enabled in most cases? And if they do drop it's extremely noticeable (i.e. 60 to 30)

First of all, you said most cases. which means its not an established rule.

And second, even 30fps can appear perfectly smooth and so qualify for the statement "no slowdown" (obviosuly slowdown must be noticable to be noted). There are numerous perfectly smooth consoles games which are locked at 30fps, so saying that the game can't possibly be dropping to it because the reviewer didn't notice any slow down makes no sense.

 

[Shompola]

First of all, you said most cases. which means its not an established rule.

And second, even 30fps can appear perfectly smooth and so qualify for the statement "no slowdown" (obviosuly slowdown must be noticable to be noted). There are numerous perfectly smooth consoles games which are locked at 30fps, so saying that the game can't possibly be dropping to it because the reviewer didn't notice any slow down makes no sense.

You can notice stuttering or slowdowns even if you percieve 20fps as smooth. Dunno what you are trying to imply here. Or if you are implying that people who think that 30fps is smooth, also cant notice a drop in framerate from 60fps to 30fps then you are wrong I am afraid.

 

[kyleb]

He is saying that if you do perceive 20fps as smooth and the game stays locked at that then, then it runs great with now slowdowns as far as you are concerned. Heck, even if you are like me and 20fps looks to awful; that doesn't change the whether or not the game runs without slowdowns, just whether or not the framerate is bareable or not.

 

[Shompola]

I thought we already established that console games are locked at 60FPS due to VSYNCH being enabled in most cases? And if they do drop it's extremely noticeable (i.e. 60 to 30)

Ninja Gaiden is a good example of a game that does not(I can see tearing in some parts of the game) have vsync enabled, almost no slowdown(there are a couple of places where the game can turn into a slideshow though) and reportedly runs at 60fps in most cases. So if a game runs at a very steady framerate, it does not automatically mean vsync is enabled.

 

[kyleb]

Halo is another game that doesn't have slowdowns for the most part, but it is locked at 30fps max and always has vsync. I'm pretty sure it has triple buffering too as most of slowdowns don't look as harsh as they would when droping from 30 to 20 and so on.

 

[Tap In]

well I just got back from Best Buy where I played the X360 COD2 Demo for about 20 minutes.


I don't know how it compares to PC, I don't know what frame rate it runs at but WOW... this game is silky smooth, refined and tight as a drum IMO.

dropped lots of grenades and smoke canisters and ran up against a ton of enemies with lots of action... didn't stutter once.

 

[kyleb]

How does "didn't stutter once" compare to say Halo2 on the Xbox to you? I'm asking because Halo2 doesn't studder, but it never breaks 30fps and does get quite a bit lower in spots.

 

[Tap In]

How does "didn't stutter once" compare to say Halo2 on the Xbox to you? I'm asking because Halo2 doesn't studder, but it never breaks 30fps and does get quite a bit lower in spots.

that's a good question.

I have not played the single player campaign in Halo2 very much but in Halo2 MP I notice a slowdown of fps when frags are going off with a lot of players on screen and the smoke is thick.

COD2, to me, seemed to be rolling along at a really nice clip the entire time. I didn't perceive to be what I would consider a drop in frame rate at any time. I played pretty much through the demo onto the beach with a lot of enemies and allies all firing at once with battle chatter and planes flying over and frags and smoke grenades going off.

I did not perceive a single time where everything did not feel as if it were constantly at a steady rate.

To be fair, I probably would not be able to tell if a game was 60 or 30 unless they were side by side and I was pretty immersed in the non-stop action.

Off topic, the X360 controller was like butter. I was a bit surprised because I prefer the original Xbox "Duke" controller to the S but this thing (although smaller than the S) felt perfect.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Also it doesn't matter if the guy is an editor for PC games or Jesus himself; if he is like you in that he can't tell 30fps from 60fps, then his claim is meaningless.

For all you know he can tell 60FPS at a single glance. Right? You don't know...

And you guys are acting like the developer hasn't stated this game is 60FPS. We already have the develoipers telling us it's 60FPS, then we have multiple gaming sites (TXB, 1UP-3 seperate editors, TotalGames) all telling us it's rock solid. So all these examples of "well a game coudl run at 30fps and be totally smooth" are meaningless, it doesn't run at 30, it runs at 60(if you believe IW which I tend to).

My only point is, although the Demo may have slowdowns, the final game apparently does not, I could care less if it's locked at 60FPS, and that was never the point I was arguing(however if vsynch is enabled it probably is locked at 60fps if i understand correctly). We've alreayd established framerate comparisons are meningless as A) we don't know what the internal resolution is and B) we don't even know if the PC and X360 are running teh same version.

We know it's 60FPS according to the developer, and shows NO slowdown at ALL, that's good enough for me.

 

[Shompola]

Yah they have had said that the game is 60fps and game journalists have been backing that statement numerous times. And spotting slowdowns or stuttering are easier than to tell what framerate or resolution a game is running by just staring at the screen. So if they havent reported any slowdown, I do believe them.

 

[kyleb]

that's a good question.

I have not played the single player campaign in Halo2 very much but in Halo2 MP I notice a slowdown of fps when frags are going off with a lot of players on screen and the smoke is thick...

Off topic, the X360 controller was like butter...

I'm really just curious if you notice that Halo2 doesn't even go above 30fps, as while for people who are more decerning about framerate Halo2 isn't ever quite smooth, someone who is fine with 30fps will say the game runs great for the most part. So the same would be pretty much the same for CoD2, and someone who sees 30fps as smooth as it gets would never even notice the game droping down to that framerate.

As for the controller, I'm right with you there, I'm a Duke man myself and was a bit worried about the size of the 360 controller but it feels great.

My only point is, although the Demo may have slowdowns, the final game apparently does not, I could care less if it's locked at 60FPS, and that was never the point I was arguing(however if vsynch is enabled it probably is locked at 60fps if i understand correctly)..

I don't know why you are arguing about it if you could care less if it drops into the 30's, I'm just reporting what I saw first hand for those of us who do aprecate the difference. If you want to stop giving me trouble about this, that would be great.

 

[Dave Glue]

dropped lots of grenades and smoke canisters and ran up against a ton of enemies with lots of action... didn't stutter once.

Completely different experience for me. Just played it as well - quite a bit of slowdown, and below 30fps in some heavy action sequences. Without firing and without a lot of smoke it was 60fps, but hardly "stutter free". As you said though you can't notice the difference between 30 and 60 without seeing them side by side, for me it's glaringly obvious.

Agree about the controller though, it's a thing of beauty.

 

[scooby_dooby]

If you want to stop giving me trouble about this, that would be great.

LOL. Well, I've mainly been speaking to PJ and Nicked, not trying to "give you trouble"!

Also, you played the DEMO, these reviewers presumably played full versions, remember that.

 

[Tap In]

I'm really just curious if you notice that Halo2 doesn't even go above 30fps, as while for people who are more decerning about framerate Halo2 isn't ever quite smooth, someone who is fine with 30fps will say the game runs great for the most part. So the same would be pretty much the same for CoD2, and someone who sees 30fps as smooth as it gets would never even notice the game droping down to that framerate.

As for the controller, I'm right with you there, I'm a Duke man myself and was a bit worried about the size of the 360 controller but it feels great.

....

I can live with the frame rate in Halo 2 but it could be better. I think that CoD2 to me, appears to run faster than Halo2.

I admit that I'm not that discerning as far as being able to visually tell the difference between 30 or 60 because I have not spent much time comparing them. I may not be much help here, but CoD feeling "silky smooth", was my best phrase to express my sense of a fast frame rate.

It feels, when playing it, that everything is happening in real time exactly when I want it to without breaking the sense of realism.

 

[Tap In]

Completely different experience for me. Just played it as well - quite a bit of slowdown, and below 30fps in some heavy action sequences. Without firing and without a lot of smoke it was 60fps, but hardly "stutter free". As you said though you can't notice the difference between 30 and 60 without seeing them side by side, for me it's glaringly obvious.

Agree about the controller though, it's a thing of beauty.

I'm not sure if I want to learn the difference then as I think I may be disappointed in gaming from that point on.


I guess perhaps, I represent the masses (casuals maybe) who will buy this game and like me, will think it plays great and you represent the group of more experienced gamers with a more keen eye for these things.

 

[kyleb]

LOL. Well, I've mainly been speaking to PJ and Nicked, not trying to "give you trouble"!

Also, you played the DEMO, these reviewers presumably played full versions, remember that.

I remember that, do you not remember quoting me stating exactly that just a few posts back?