*Circus of Value* Spin-off

[DuckThor Evil]

Too me they're just catching up with reality. MS had positioned itself in such a way that people see PS3 and 360 as equivalent price machines. That shouldnt be the case at all, considering one has Blu Ray and the other doesnt.

I just don't think that Blu-ray movies mean alot to your average consumer. I think it's basically a new toy for tech heads and hardcore movie enthuasist. On a small 40>" you have to have a good eye to spot the difference between BD and DVD and usually bigger screens or projectors belong to the hardcore only. I just don't see Blu-ray movies as big selling point in Europe, atleast until two or more years have passed, and the prices of the movies have to go down alot and rental selection has to widen significantly and even then it likely won't matter that much.

Games and the perception of these machines are by far the most important things. I have about 20 Blu-ray movies, but I'm pretty much always in trouble when I try to impress anyone with them. People just don't see the difference very well on my 40" Bravia and when they see the price of the movies things go bad really fast. PS3 still has really good reputation in Europe and many people I know are going to buy it very soon, but mostly for it's games, out of which many are still upcoming. Nobody has said to me that they are going to buy it, because of the Blu-ray, some have mentioned it as plus though.

 

[liolio]

I would go even further than your "for its games", as I know I least two who only bough multiplatform games and don't care about BRD, I would say for games, which says a lot on Sony brand strengh.

 

[Limanima]

On a small 40>" you have to have a good eye to spot the difference between BD and DVD and usually bigger screens or projectors belong to the hardcore only.

I have to disagree. The diference beetween BR and DVD is just ENOURMOUS. How is it possible not to spot the diference?
In a FH LCD the difference is from 1 to 100.

 

[Arwin]

There are three factors: quality of the bitstream (HD on cable TV is often not hi-quality enough), quality of the TV, distance, and the person viewing.

But with some titles, like Ratatouille or Planet Earth, people just always notice, in my experience.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I have to disagree. The diference beetween BR and DVD is just ENOURMOUS. How is it possible not to spot the diference?
In a FH LCD the difference is from 1 to 100.

I've seen a couple BRD movies on PS3, a 40" Sammy 1080p native LCD, at a viewing distance of 2-3 metres, and the difference hasn't been astounding by any stretch. Text is clearerm, which is great for credits... And tiny effects like the lights on buildings in Bladerunner are clearly clearer. But overall the difference is such that on the whole, you have to know there's a difference and go looking for it, and then you can sit back and say 'yes, this is clearer HD' and then forget all about it and watch the movie where it makes no difference to the experience.

BRD may end up a good selling point, but not because it's worth it IMO.

 

[ShaidarHaran]

WRT discerning quality difference between BR and DVD on smallish screens:

I think the quality of the encode has a lot to do with this. I picked up a few older titles on BR because they were cheapish compared to new titles, but I could not see a difference in quality on a few of these because of the poor quality encode. Stargate is the best example of this I've found thus far. While the picture was slightly sharper, there was a significant amount of noise added to many scenes that is just not present in the DVD release.

Then you get to a title like Casino Royale and the difference is, IMHO, astounding.

That's on a Panny 42" plasma @ 1080P viewed from up to 12' away.

 

[Zassk]

I think the average consumer is still coming to grips with the quality of DVD, nevermind BRD. Remember that statistic about the percentage of people that have composite connected to their HDTV? We're appalled by this, but a lot of people just don't see it. All they want is a bigger TV. For them, BRD has close to zero value. And yes, those people do buy game consoles - at least once they fall below certain key prices.

 

[eastmen]

I have to disagree. The diference beetween BR and DVD is just ENOURMOUS. How is it possible not to spot the diference?
In a FH LCD the difference is from 1 to 100.

But so is the price diffrence for many movies. I have alot of friends that are tech savy and many are still waiting on bluray , even those with ps3. They don't feel they want to spend 15$ bucks more on a new release just for the higher quality video of which many of them don't clearly see the diffrence. I myself have slowed down on buying since hd dvd droped out. As the holiday season comes into play itsj ust harder to justify droping my cash on a $30 bluray movie when for another $30 I can have a 360 or ps3 game I really want but couldn't afford buying movies.
I simply don't see bluray being a major selling point of the ps3. its not the player prices that are the problem. You pay that $250-$400 once and thats really it till the player dies which could be a decade or more. However each time you go to view a new movie it could cost you upwards of $40 depending on title and where you go.

I think they finaly got the arcade price right with the $200 price point. It lacks many things a hardcore gamer might want , but it makes a great second 360 in a house or a great console for a kid that isn't allowed online or will just dable with it. Adding the $100 60 gig upgrade pack also makes sense, although I feel they need to add a hdmi cable to it. It allows buyers to actually break even for the first time when upgrading their 360 experiance. You might be missing high def cables but you got a memory card , 5 free arcade titles and of course 3 months of live free. The 60 gig xbox 360 is a good deal also. Everything you need to enjoy live in one package. THe elite however still doesn't make sense. It should really be $380 or so to make it a value over the pro. I don't think that double the hardrive space and a breakout audio box is worth an extra $100 and I dont' think its a great value compared to the ps3 if you plan on doing alot of non gaming stuff on the system.

 

[djskribbles]

i agree with Limanima, the difference with most movies is quite noticeable and anyone with a good set of eyes would see the difference. whether they care enough to drop 250-400+ on a BR player is a different story. but as BR matures, movies will look better and better, as they did on DVD.

the difference between DVD and BD is generally about 10 bucks. the only reason why BR software isn't selling as well, is because there are far more DVD players out there. once players become affordable, things will even out. but i do agree that this won't happen for another 1-2 years.

i think BR will always be a selling point as long as the pricing of the PS3 is competitive with standalones.

 

[eastmen]

i agree with Limanima, the difference with most movies is quite noticeable and anyone with a good set of eyes would see the difference. whether they care enough to drop 250-400+ on a BR player is a different story. but as BR matures, movies will look better and better, as they did on DVD.

the difference between DVD and BD is generally about 10 bucks. the only reason why BR software isn't selling as well, is because there are far more DVD players out there. once players become affordable, things will even out. but i do agree that this won't happen for another 1-2 years.

i think BR will always be a selling point as long as the pricing of the PS3 is competitive with standalones.

Yo know buying a $10 catalog title would mean your doubling the cost of your purchase. Even on new release titles your spending more with iron man your looking at a 50% increase in price. What I actually find interesting about bestbuy is that if true they have raised their new releases for dvd by $5. I believe its a place holder price though as normaly in store new releases are $15. However I used the $20 price point for the figures.

 

[joker454]

I just don't think that Blu-ray movies mean alot to your average consumer.

I've all but given up trying to sell blu-ray to friends and family. I've shown it to so many people on my 50" Panasonic plasma, reference titles like Ratatouile, Shoot'em Up, Crank, etc. They just don't care. In fact, the whole blu-ray thing is met with so much apathy, that I'm starting to think that Microsoft will not even bother with it for the Xbox 720, and instead just go with some other less pirateable custom optical format, and stick with digital downloads.

Sometimes I think the entire switch to HD has had nothing at all to do with HD content itself, but just people wanting to get a tv that they can hang on a wall.

 

[PARANOiA]

Sometimes I think the entire switch to HD has had nothing at all to do with HD content itself, but just people wanting to get a tv that they can hang on a wall.

To an extent I agree with this, and that's why I wouldn't be surprised for digital distribution to be a lot bigger than initially expected in a few years.

As someone who had a 1080i CRT TV, upgrading to a 1080p Bravia was more about reclaiming my living room. Why the DVD upscaling on it looks good, it's no match for BR... however I don't really want to take up more space in my house by rebuying my old movies, and to an extent don't really want to buy new things to take up space. Owning physical media (games or movies or CD's) is something I never thought I'd let go of (eg I own every since Radiohead album/single/EP ever released, despite having the MP3s before I could track them all down), but I really don't want to be having less room in my house because I enjoy my entertainment devices. I've been slowly selling my old movies and CD's to meet this need, and only keep the games I adore this gen, trading the ones I know I'll never want to play again for more games, while not taking up any additional space.

That kind of goes against the love of peripherals this gen though, with instrument sales, the balance board and whatnot making gaming setups less "hidden" than previous gens.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Well, you can save a hell of a lot of space if you are able to let go of your DVD/CD/Blu-ray cases and move all your discs to organizers. When I moved this summer I decided to take this step, bought 3 308 disc organizers at Walmart and started putting my entire CD, DVD and PC game collection into the binders. I literally threw away about 10 garbage bags full of empty cases. Now everything is in three fat binders that wouldn't even take up a single shelf on one of my book cases.

 

[-tkf-]

I've all but given up trying to sell blu-ray to friends and family. I've shown it to so many people on my 50" Panasonic plasma, reference titles like Ratatouile, Shoot'em Up, Crank, etc. They just don't care. In fact, the whole blu-ray thing is met with so much apathy, that I'm starting to think that Microsoft will not even bother with it for the Xbox 720, and instead just go with some other less pirateable custom optical format, and stick with digital downloads.

Sometimes I think the entire switch to HD has had nothing at all to do with HD content itself, but just people wanting to get a tv that they can hang on a wall.

Bring them to my HT, put them in my 3 person couch less than 2 meters away from the screen and with a 30 inch sub literally 15 centimeters from their back and then let them see the final transformers scene. If they dont care after that then they are not movie fans.

 

[RobertR1]

Bring them to my HT, put them in my 3 person couch less than 2 meters away from the screen and with a 30 inch sub literally 15 centimeters from their back and then let them see the final transformers scene. If they dont care after that then they are not movie fans.

That's awesome! but when they go home they don't have that and won't spend the time, money, research and energy required to get at that level. Not everyone is a HT enthusiast. They simply don't care. For every convert you might get sucked in the A/V hobby you'll get 50 who simply won't care.

I often have movie night at might house with friends. They come over and love the presentation. Video and audio. They still don't go running out to get their own. While they enjoy what they see and hear, it's not their hobby.

BR is an enthusiast format. If it gets main stream it'll be mainly due to forced adoption such as cycling out DVD players with BR players, Media prices coming down to DVD levels and taking up prime shelf space. They'll have to steer the consumers into BR. They won't care enough to come on their own.

The whole chest thumping of "BRING THEM TO SEE MY HT!" mean nothing since they can't duplicate it and frankly, don't have the desire to.

 

[-tkf-]

The whole chest thumping of "BRING THEM TO SEE MY HT!" mean nothing since they can't duplicate it and frankly, don't have the desire to.

Pretty much everyone that have seen BR at my place utter the words "i need to get BR". It wont be today or tomorrow but thanks to the chest thumping (wtf?) they are without any doubt converts. When they see the sad DVD movies they know it´s not the best anymore and the desire for better have been ignited. And just that fullfills my mission, death to dvd and mediocre video

 

[Phil]

In my experience, the change from DVD => BRD (or HD content) isn't as noticable, than if you try to go from BRD => DVD. Once you're used to HD content, there's no going back.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think a lot of difference comes from flat-panels as well. DVD on LCD tends to look rubbish with compression artefacts, but DVD on CRT looks great. So from DVD on LCD to BRD on LCD, there's a far more noticeable improvement than from CRT DVD to LCD BRD.

 

[Limanima]

I've seen a couple BRD movies on PS3, a 40" Sammy 1080p native LCD, at a viewing distance of 2-3 metres, and the difference hasn't been astounding by any stretch. Text is clearerm, which is great for credits... And tiny effects like the lights on buildings in Bladerunner are clearly clearer. But overall the difference is such that on the whole, you have to know there's a difference and go looking for it, and then you can sit back and say 'yes, this is clearer HD' and then forget all about it and watch the movie where it makes no difference to the experience.

BRD may end up a good selling point, but not because it's worth it IMO.

I've watched Oceans's 13 and Sweeny Tod on a 40'' Sony Bravia, and it was just WOW. I guess it depends on the quality of the video data (compression, conversion, etc).

 

[rekator]

I've watched Oceans's 13 and Sweeny Tod on a 40'' Sony Bravia, and it was just WOW. I guess it depends on the quality of the video data (compression, conversion, etc).

It's also depend if the film was realized for HD spec, exemple King kong in DVD you can't really see FX, King Kong on HD you clearly see FX…
Only very recents films are realized for HD spec, and don't forget that people who made films need time to adapt their working to HD, personally I thinking that the film industry target more the 2K or 4K format than the 1080p, so 1080p is only a short step and probably don't have the life time of SD. Blu-ray is different you can have a 2K or 4K film with a multilayer or better codecs on it… but are the actuals players can manage this? For most of them no…
And I agree that MS made a good choice to not include a HD player in the 360, for Sony is different they have really need to push the sells of HD TV, so to have content for this is a help.