Christian Reconstructionism... in USA...

[zidane1strife]

This is from one of my threads in another forum...

"critical profile: the organization's purpose is to establish Old Testament Biblical law as the standard for society. Chalcedon promotes Christian Reconstructionism -- which mandates Christ's dominion over all the world."

http://www.chalcedon.edu/desk/vision_statement.shtml


....Diebold....Election Systems....

ES&S claims that they tabulated "56% of the U.S. national vote for the past four presidential elections."-essvote.com

AIS (1980) was formerly Data Mark (1979), both founded by brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich. Bob is currently president of Diebold. Todd Urosevich is Vice President, Aftermarket Sales of ES&S.
AIS was primarily funded with money from Ahmanson brothers, William and Robert, of H.F. Ahmanson Co., holding company for the nation's largest savings and loan association and a group of Omaha-based insurance companies, at the time.

Howard Ahmanson belongs to Council for National Policy (hard right wing organization)Howard Ahmanson also helps finance The Chalcedon Institute: "Established in 1965, Chalcedon (kal-SEE-dun) is a non-profit 501(c)(3) and Christian educational organization devoted to research, publishing, and promoting Christian reconstruction in all areas of life... Our emphasis on the Cultural or Dominion Mandate (Genesis 1:28 ) and the necessity of a return to Biblical Law has been a a crucial factor in the challenge to Humanism by Christians in this country and elsewhere... A world that is increasingly pessimistic and disillusioned with the failure of secular Humanism is now feeling the impact of Christians who are exercising dominion and reclaiming lost spheres of authority for Christ the King.

Howard Ahmanson, Jr.- CNP Member 1984-85, 1988, Board of Governors 1996, 1998. President of Fieldstead and Co.; Fieldstead Foundation; chair of the California Independent Business PAC. Ahmanson is an Orange County financier who inherited Home Savings of America from his father, has spent millions promoting Religious Right candidates, first in California and then nationwide. Ahmanson has been a major contributor to the Capitol Resource Institute, 6 the California political front of Focus on the Family; the Western Center for Law and Religious Freedom, the Reason Foundation, 7 (an offshoot of Reason Public Policy Institute (RPPI) 8. and the California Prolife Council. Inc.


Ahmanson also served 23 years (retired 1995) on the board of the Chalcedon Institute 12 in Vallecito, California, which Newsweek (Feb. 2, 1981) accurately identified as the think tank of the Religious Right. The Chalcedon Institute, to which Ahmanson has contributed over a million dollars, was founded in 1965, perpetuates the Dominionist/Reconstructionist/Kingdom Now beliefs of founder Rev. Rousas John Rushdoony who was also a member of the CNP. Rushdoony, who died February 8, 2001, is known as the "father of Christian Reconstructionism," which is the misguided belief that Christians should have dominion over all earthly affairs and nations and the law would be according to Old Testament laws, which includes the death penalty for many infractions..

Found this while browsing the web, is any of this true? Are there connections between those behind the machines that are to uphold our democracy... and those who would like to destroy it?

PS This was found by someone else, I'd just like verification, and we could also discuss the intentions of Christian Reconstructionists....

PPS sorry if this has been posted before...

 

[Natoma]

I wouldn't doubt it. There are probably as many people dedicated to making this country a religious state as there are people dedicated to making this country completely secular. Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, but thank goodness our founding laws aren't based on the bible, and probably never will be.

 

[jvd]

Well having laws based on the 10 commandments wouldn't be a bad thing since they are a good moral compass . Thou shall not kill , thou shalt not steal , thou shalt not have sex with other peoples wifes .

Of course you have to change somethings to include gays and have to get rid of the whole I'm your only god now get on your knees bitch and pray to me and only me crap .

 

[Ilfirin]

thou shalt not have sex with other peoples wifes .

Hmm, what about swing parties?

 

[zidane1strife]

Ok, now let's get serious. Unless, I'm mistaken, the information leads me to believe that organizations within the US are teaching many something that should not be taught...

This, if true, is akin to a nazi, or an islam movement within the US, only thing is it involves the christian religion instead. If so this is not something to take lightly. If we have an inner movement of organized fundamentalists aiding each other and vying for gov. positions... things could get dicey.


Now, to get things rolling, some words:

“It’s horrifying and ridiculous that these machines don’t have a voter-verifiable audit trail,†said Rebecca Mercuri, a Harvard University research fellow who specializes in computer security and voting systems.

http://msnbc.com/news/976511.asp?0sl=-41&cp1=1

also googled and found this...

“Only a few companies dominate the market for computer
voting machines. Alarmingly, under U.S. federal law, no background
checks are required on these companies or their employees.
Felons and foreigners can, and do, own computer voting
machine companies.
“Voting machine companies demand that clients sign ‘proprietary’
contracts to protect their trade secrets, which prohibits
a thorough inspection of voting machines by outsiders.
“And, unbelievably, it appears that most election officials
don’t require paper ballots to back up or audit electronic election
results. So far, lawsuits to allow complete access to inspect
voting machines, or to require paper ballots so that recounts
are possible ... have failed.-Lynn Landes

Is this true?

edii

 

[cthellis42]

Well having laws based on the 10 commandments wouldn't be a bad thing since they are a good moral compass . Thou shall not kill , thou shalt not steal , thou shalt not have sex with other peoples wifes .

Of course you have to change somethings to include gays and have to get rid of the whole I'm your only god now get on your knees bitch and pray to me and only me crap .

Well first you have to figure out which Ten Commandments... Then you have to excise about half outright because of the religious leanings, ignore the ones that are simply "advice" since we don't want laws regulating thought (unless we also redefine "covet"), change or eliminate those that might have some legal ramifications (such as "grounds for divorce" for adultery) but not illegality...

Basically in the end, it's silly. Those that ARE the most important exist however society developed, as they're understood as necessary to forbid (or at least discourage and punish) to have a properly functioning society. Punishing people for killing and stealing...? Duh. That will always be around in any properly-functioning society. There's too much detritus in the rest to make it useful for anything. And there are always going to be "levels" within a society of any size anyway, so...

The laws will develop as they always do. There's certainly no need for a "core" that's simplistic, doesn't really fit a legal structure, and points towards one set of people over another.

 

[akira888]

zidane:

Reconstruction is a small, rather pathetic cult. Don't worry about it, there's larger problems in our country and abroad other than these loons.

The reason I know Rushdoony is that he was a rather harsh critic of the church I'm baptized into; why this is so, I particularly don't care to explain.

 

[MfA]

Given a bit more time the only real proof of honest elections in the US will be exit polls (Of course that doesnt work if the voting districts are such that there are a lot of sure wins and a few very well balanced ones, and very little in between.)

 

[zidane1strife]

Reconstruction is a small, rather pathetic cult. Don't worry about it, there's larger problems in our country and abroad other than these loons.

The reason I know Rushdoony is that he was a rather harsh critic of the church I'm baptized into; why this is so, I particularly don't care to explain.

Well, but it'd seem that some of those involved in the movement, have financed the company behind most of the vote counting, that they have millions in the bank, and many an institution teaching would be professionals, lawyers, politicians... this is what they say:

"With the apathy that exists today, a small, well-organized minority can influence the selection of candidates to an astonishing degree." -Pat Robertson

But, let's hope you're right, cause we've seen what a few mad men have managed to achieve in the recent past and throughout history... terrorisms, mass genocide, violations of the basic human rights, etc...

PS Is this real?

A BILL
To limit the jurisdiction of Federal courts in certain cases and promote federalism.



Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Constitution Restoration Act of 2004'.

TITLE I--JURISDICTION

SEC. 101. APPELLATE JURISDICTION.

(a) IN GENERAL-

(1) AMENDMENT TO TITLE 28- Chapter 81 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`Sec. 1260. Matters not reviewable

`Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is sought against an element of Federal, State, or local government, or against an officer of Federal, State, or local government (whether or not acting in official personal capacity), by reason of that element's or officer's acknowledgement of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government.'.

(2) TABLE OF SECTIONS- The table of sections at the beginning of chapter 81 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`1260. Matters not reviewable.'.

(b) APPLICABILITY- Section 1260 of title 28, United States Code, as added by subsection (a), shall not apply to an action pending on the date of enactment of this Act, except to the extent that a party or claim is sought to be included in that action after the date of enactment of this Act.

SEC. 102. LIMITATIONS ON JURISDICTION.

(a) IN GENERAL-

(1) AMENDMENT TO TITLE 28- Chapter 85 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end of the following:

`Sec. 1370. Matters that the Supreme Court lacks jurisdiction to review

`Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the district court shall not have jurisdiction of a matter if the Supreme Court does not have jurisdiction to review that matter by reason of section 1260 of this title.'.

(2) TABLE OF SECTIONS- The table of sections at the beginning of chapter 85 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:

`1370. Matters that the Supreme Court lacks jurisdiction to review.'.

(b) APPLICABILITY- Section 1370 of title 28, United States Code, as added by subsection (a), shall not apply to an action pending on the date of enactment of this Act, except to the extent that a party or claim is sought to be included in that action after the date of enactment of this Act.

TITLE II--INTERPRETATION

SEC. 201. INTERPRETATION OF THE CONSTITUTION.

In interpreting and applying the Constitution of the United States, a court of the United States may not rely upon any constitution, law, administrative rule, Executive order, directive, policy, judicial decision, or any other action of any foreign state or international organization or agency, other than the constitutional law and English common law.

TITLE III--ENFORCEMENT

SEC. 301. EXTRAJURISDICTIONAL CASES NOT BINDING ON STATES.

Any decision of a Federal court which has been made prior to or after the effective date of this Act, to the extent that the decision relates to an issue removed from Federal jurisdiction under section 1260 or 1370 of title 28, United States Code, as added by this Act, is not binding precedent on any State court.

SEC. 302. IMPEACHMENT, CONVICTION, AND REMOVAL OF JUDGES FOR CERTAIN EXTRAJURISDICTIONAL ACTIVITIES.

To the extent that a justice of the Supreme Court of the United States or any judge of any Federal court engages in any activity that exceeds the jurisdiction of the court of that justice or judge, as the case may be, by reason of section 1260 or 1370 of title 28, United States Code, as added by this Act, engaging in that activity shall be deemed to constitute the commission of--

(1) an offense for which the judge may be removed upon impeachment and conviction; and

(2) a breach of the standard of good behavior required by article III, section 1 of the Constitution.
END

http://aderholt.house.gov/HoR/AL04/...3/Constitution+Restoration+Act+Introduced.htm
http://tigger.uic.edu/~mckenzie/conrestact.html

PPS Is this real?

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ky02_lewis/Activism.html

legislation that would allow Congress, by a 2/3rds vote in each house, to override certain future decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court. The bill was drafted in an effort to redress recent cases of activist judicial rulings.

PPPS Is this real?

Houses of Worship Political Speech Protection Act
amends the Internal Revenue Code to permit a church to participate or intervene in a political campaign and maintain its tax-exempt status as long as such participation is not a substantial part of its activities.

http://www.gop.gov/committeecentral/docs/bills/107/1/bill.asp?bill=hr2357
Thankfully it did not pass...

 

[pax]

Yeah this is about as important as Demo's worrying about the american socialist party's small protest rallies...

 

[Gollum]

Well having laws based on the 10 commandments wouldn't be a bad thing since they are a good moral compass . Thou shall not kill , thou shalt not steal , thou shalt not have sex with other peoples wifes .

Of course you have to change somethings to include gays and have to get rid of the whole I'm your only god now get on your knees bitch and pray to me and only me crap .

Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?
You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. Here's what happened:

About 5,000 years ago a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to try to figure out how to control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told, so they announced that God had given them some commandments, up on a mountain, when no one was around.

Well let me ask you this- when they were making this shit up, why did they pick 10? Why not 9 or 11? I'll tell you why - because 10 sound official. Ten sounds important! Ten is the basis for the decimal system, it's a decade, it's a psychologically satisfying number (the top ten, the ten most wanted, the ten best dressed). So having ten commandments was really a marketing decision! It is clearly a bullshit list. It's a political document artificially inflated to sell better. I will now show you how you can reduce the number of commandments and come up with a list that's a little more workable and logical. I am going to use the Roman Catholic version because those were the ones I was taught as a little boy.

Let's start with the first three:

I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALT NOT HAVE STRANGE GODS BEFORE ME
THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN
THOU SHALT KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH

Right off the bat the first three are pure bullshit. Sabbath day? Lord's name? strange gods? Spooky language! Designed to scare and control primitive people. In no way does superstitious nonsense like this apply to the lives of intelligent civilized humans in the 21st century. So now we're down to 7. Next:

HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER

Obedience, respect for authority. Just another name for controlling people. The truth is that obedience and respect shouldn't be automatic. They should be earned and based on the parent's performance. Some parents deserve respect, but most of them don't, period. You're down to six.

Now in the interest of logic, something religion is very uncomfortable with, we're going to jump around the list a little bit.

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL
THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS

Stealing and lying. Well actually, these two both prohibit the same kind of behavior- dishonesty. So you don't really need two you combine them and call the commandment "thou shalt not be dishonest". And suddenly you're down to 5.

And as long as we're combining I have two others that belong together:

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTRY
THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE

Once again, these two prohibit the same type of behavior. In this case it is marital infidelity. The difference is - coveting takes place in the mind. But I don't think you should outlaw fantasizing about someone else's wife because what is a guy gonna think about when he's waxing his carrot? But, marital infidelity is a good idea so we're gonna keep this one and call it "thou shalt not be unfaithful". And suddenly we're down to four.

But when you think about it, honesty and infidelity are really part of the same overall value so, in truth, you could combine the two honesty commandments with the two fidelity commandments and give them simpler language, positive language instead of negative language and call the whole thing "thou shalt always be honest and faithful" and we're down to 3.

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S GOODS

This one is just plain fuckin' stupid. Coveting your neighbor's goods is what keeps the economy going! Your neighbor gets a vibrator that plays "o come o ye faithful", and you want one too! Coveting creates jobs, so leave it alone. You throw out coveting and you're down to 2 now- the big honesty and fidelity commandment and the one we haven't talked about yet:

THOU SHALT NOT KILL

Murder. But when you think about it, religion has never really had a big problem with murder. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason. All you have to do is look at Northern Ireland, Cashmire, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the World Trade Center to see how seriously the religious folks take thou shalt not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable. It depends on who's doin the killin' and who's gettin' killed. So, with all of this in mind, I give you my revised list of the two commandments:

Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.
&
Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.

Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his fuckin' pocket. I wouldn't mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:

Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

 

[zidane1strife]

Yeah this is about as important as Demo's worrying about the american socialist party's small protest rallies...

You know, some of those bills have many supporters, the one that did not pass got 178 votes... I mean this is obvious BS, BS that should not get more than 30-40 votes at most... yet it got approved by nearly half the house...

I mean, I hope you're right, cause this sort of movement is one that was not possible back in the days when the checks and balance system was put in place... It is one that if, and that's a big 'IF' performed correctly, can indeed bypass the safeguards, and reconstruct the system....

 

[pax]

Im not too worried as at worst the law would be struck down in the short term. I dont worry about what lawmakers do during relatively good times. Its when shit hits the fan and the economy goes south or maybe a few more 9\11's happen that Id pay more attention.

Thats when lawmakers can make some really fucked up shit and the people are more likely to let them get away with it. But these are the good days.. lets hope they last a litttle while longer...

 

[V3]

Here is my problem with the ten commandments- why exactly are there 10?
You simply do not need ten. The list of ten commandments was artificially and deliberately inflated to get it up to ten. Here's what happened:

Except 2000 years ago someone already reduced the ten commandments into just one commandment.

And this guy only managed to get it down to two, plus an additional

 

[Gollum]

Nice ostrich mentality there pax, sounds a bit like stickin' yer head into the sand to me. I think a lot of people won't agree with these days beeing "good days". In case you didn't notice, the shit has already hit the fan:
9/11 did happen and is only the tip of an iceberg of concern for the west; several questionable laws have been passed since then (not only in the US) and more are on the table; memory of Madrid still weighs heavy on our minds; Israel/Palestine is a still warzone; there've been two full scale wars within only 2 years (one causing a lot of animosity between supposed friends) and the way things've been going it won't be long before the next; tens of thousands of people are dying every day just because they don't have access to commodities we take for granted or even as basic things as water; the gap between the poor and rich is still growing worldwide, even in our rich countries; the economy is still not recovering as it should be; seems like for every new job created, 2 more people are fired elsewhere; politicians yelling at each other instead of working out what's best for the people; extremist groups growing in popularity all over the world; in general a lot of disturbing shit has happening over the past few years no matter where you come from.

Just because there've been worse days in history doesn't mean these are the good ones...

 

[digitalwanderer]

Religion = bad, mmm-kay? :|

 

[pax]

Oh if you ask Demo he'll tell ya Im a doom and gloom kind of guy as well . Im not ignoring other issues Gollum but Im referrring to the specific post in the thread here. However I will say my fears are mostly for what might come and not the issues that are around today...

It looks bad (media makes it look often worse than it is) but in reality the only widespread horror thats around right now we should really worry about is poverty and starvation. Not saying the probs you list should be ignored but simply given the attention they deserve which sometimes is quite a bit more than other probs or upcoming probs are getting.

 

[zidane1strife]

Some more things I found on the web... this is about one of the organizations that I've heard, are involved in the movement...

According to a January 2001 report by the Institute for Democracy Studies, the Society's membership includes over 40,000 lawyers, policy analysts, business leaders and others. In addition, the organization's membership includes 5,000 law students at roughly 140 law schools.

....

PS IF we had a neo-nazi/Islam extremist/etc movement with organizations of such sizes, trying to get, and actually succeeding getting people into high-positions in gov., congress, and courts... I would be quite worried.... thankfully, they have a different name, and public ideologies... that's quite reassuring

 

[L233]

Well having laws based on the 10 commandments wouldn't be a bad thing since they are a good moral compass . Thou shall not kill , thou shalt not steal , thou shalt not have sex with other peoples wifes .

Basing laws on the Ten Commandments wouldn't be a bad thing, I agree. It would be a horrible thing. The worst thing that could possibly happen. It would be outright stupid.

1. I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me.

= no more freedom of religion.

2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image. You shall not bow down to them or serve them.

= outlawing Catholicism and freedom of artistic expression.

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

= no more free speech.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

= several freedoms get restricted

5. Honor your father and your mother.

That's solid advice but do you really want to base a law on this? Legislate punishment of "bad" kids or throw people who neglect their parents when they're old into prison? Also, it goes against freedom of speech. If I want to call my father an asshole, I should be allowed to do so.

6. You shall not kill.

Better: You shall not murder. That's part of every law system there is and it's hardly a novel idea. Most societies outlawed murder a long time before a bunch of Israelite priests made up the OT.

7. You shall not commit adultery.

Again, sound advise but nothing you could possibly legislate. If people want to sleep around then by all means, let them. They will have to deal with the consequences of it and not the state. Also, in a biblical context, adultery doesn't just mean having sex with a person married to someone else, it means that all sex outside wedlock is forbidden.

8. You shall not steal.

See 6. That's hardly an idea unique to the Ten Commandments. It's already part of virtually every law system so there is no need to base a law system on the Ten Commandments.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Lying isn't illegal unless you damage someone's reputation or you do it in court under oath.

10. You shall not covet.

= thought police. I can covet whatever I want. Coveting is a big part of Capitalism (companies coveting their competitors market share etc.).

I see only three commandments (6, 8, 9) that resemble anything in a modern law system and those values are hardly unique to the Bible or the TCs. This also proves that our western law systems are NOT based on biblical law as American fundies love to declare.

Basing laws on the Ten Commandments would be utterly pointless if not outright wrong.