Chief justice vows to fight monument removal order

Ty, in the light of Roe v. Wade, can you really state that the Supreme Court doesn't wield the power to craft laws? It's gone and invented a series of rights based on the "right to privacy", which appears literally nowhere in the constitution, that have been used as a legal bludgeon in the name of social engineering.

Though I will agree, the Supreme Court doesn't create laws, they create a space in which laws can exist--though in practical terms its the same thing.

(In other words, the Supreme Court makes law by defining which laws cannot be.)

And yes, I know that we're a republic, but what does that have to do with a law being valid or not?

And again, I don't care if its 80% or 99% or 1%. I was only using the percentage to show why this judge feels he should engage in civil disobedience with regards to the court order. His electorate wants it so. I never said this made it right.
 
Ty said:
True. But many 'rights' we believe we have aren't explicitly written in the Constitution either. Religious Liberty? Fair Trial? Heck, I don't think 'Bill of Rights' ever appears in it even though we all refer to the first 10 amendments as it.

They sure are: Religious Liberty - First Amendment. Fair Trial - Sixth Amendment.

Bill of Rights
 
RussSchultz said:
Ty, in the light of Roe v. Wade, can you really state that the Supreme Court doesn't wield the power to craft laws? It's gone and invented a series of rights based on the "right to privacy", which appears literally nowhere in the constitution, that have been used as a legal bludgeon in the name of social engineering.

Though I will agree, the Supreme Court doesn't create laws, they create a space in which laws can exist--though in practical terms its the same thing.

(In other words, the Supreme Court makes law by defining which laws cannot be.)

I will agree that through the (mis)interpretation of already established laws that rights are found or lost. But privacy? Does the constitution need to spell out everything including basic rights? It doesn't mention marriage but would you argue against it? Just because something is not spelled out does not mean it doesn't exist. Furthermore imo, the Constitution is not about what the individual can do, it's about what the government can or can not do. Privacy rights, I believe those came from interpretations from several Amendments, not Roe v. Wade. That is, Roe v. Wade was merely a stepping stone in the path.

RussSchultz said:
And yes, I know that we're a republic, but what does that have to do with a law being valid or not?

And again, I don't care if its 80% or 99% or 1%. I was only using the percentage to show why this judge feels he should engage in civil disobedience with regards to the court order. His electorate wants it so. I never said this made it right.

I hope you seriously don't believe that listening to your electorate even though it may be violating a law is a sound reason to do so.

akira888 said:
They sure are: Religious Liberty - First Amendment. Fair Trial - Sixth Amendment.

Well the first Amendment mentions that Congress can't create a law that impedes upon your religious liberties but that doesn't mean that the States couldn't mandate something against it.

WRT: Fair Trial. No where does it mention a 'fair' trial in the Sixth Amendment. Speedy yes, in addition to many elements of a 'fair' trial but no where does it explicitly mention 'fair'. Nothing in it to mandate that the Prosecution or Judge have to be fair.
 
The constitution itself in article 1, section 9 prevents habeus corpus and ex post facto laws. Amendment 5 brings us the due process clause, prevention against self incrimination, protection from double jeapardy. Amendment 6 gives us a speedy trial by impartial jury, proper venue, public defenders, subpoena power for defense witnesses, requirement that the defendant be informed of their charge. The words "fair trial" don't show up, but the constitution does one better: it outlines what a fair trial is, rather than simply stating the people have the right to one. I am near certain that anything you can think of that is "unfair" is already covered by explicite words in the constitution or one of its amendments. There's no need to invent anything.

Yes, IMHO, the does constitution need to spell out everything (or at least state with ambiguous language) that the law cannot deny the people. It prevents a politically active judiciary from subverting the will of the people with no recourse(except by an amendment, which several magnitudes of order more difficult to enact than) by simply inventing a right to the behavior/action they wish to legalize.

Ty said:
I hope you seriously don't believe that listening to your electorate even though it may be violating a law is a sound reason to do so.
What would be a better reason? Rosa Parks did it because she felt the laws were wrong. King did it because he felt the laws were wrong. Civil disobedience is an "accepted" manner in which people protest what they percieve to be unjust law.

This judge appears to be doing it because he, and his electorate, feel the laws are wrong and are trying to press the Supreme Court into re-hearing the issue and perhaps change what the accepted interpretation of the first amendment is.
 
SUMMARY:
Chief Justice Roy Moore's Case Defending The
Display Of The Ten Commandments In A Public Building
The U. S. Constitution's guarantee against an "Establishment of Religion" is not violated by the placement in the Alabama State Judicial Building's rotunda of a 2 ½ ton monument inscribed with the Ten Commandments and a variety of other quotes. To the contrary, interpretations of the Constitution by a U. S. District Court in Alabama and a three-judge panel of the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals do violate the Constitution. The monument was designed and commissioned by Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore in recognition of the moral foundation of the law.


This suit should never have gone to court. The plaintiffs complained that they found the monument "offensive," that it made them feel like an "outsider," that Moore was "using religion to further his political career," that Moore was guilty of a "shameless political use of religion," etc. None of these highly personal, subjective feelings qualifies as a "case or controversy"--the only type of action that Article III of the Constitution allows federal courts to hear.

There is no "law" involved in this case. A "law," by definition, commands, prohibits, or permits a specific action. Chief Justice Moore's installation of the monument does not command, prohibit, or permit any action by any party.

There is no unconstitutional "establishment of a religion" involved in the monument's creation and placement.

The Ten Commandments as displayed in the Judicial Building are memorialized as a fundamental source of American and English law and Western civilization. A "law" and its "source" are not the same thing. The Ten Commandments as the moral foundation of our law are supported by a variety of large, influential religious groups--evangelical Protestants, conservative Catholics, orthodox Jews, and Mormons (for example). If the Ten Commandments per se constitute a "religion," which of these "religions" is "established"?

Interrelationships between law and non-legal values, reflected in the Ten Commandments, are inevitable. "Without religion, there can be no morality: and without morality there can be no law" (top-ranking British judge Alfred Lord Denning, 1977). Reflecting this truth, the U. S. Supreme Court has correctly ruled that "This is a Christian nation" (1892, 1931).

A "pluralism" of fundamental religious and legal values can extend only so far. Both federal courts ruling against Chief Justice Moore argue for religious "pluralism"--asserting a "history of religious diversity" in America (the Court of Appeals) and branding any effort by law to recognize a single definition of "religion" as "unwise, and even dangerous" and as "tending towards a 'theocracy'" (the District Court). But the courts call for the impossible. "Values are necessary for the functioning of any society, and if they are not consciously adopted and publicly acknowledged, they will be smuggled in surreptitiously and often unconsciously. Values are always in real or potential conflict. And the state inevitably favors some values over others" (American historian James Hitchcock, 1981). Thus, American law can be based on the Ten Commandments or on a non-theistic value foundation. There is no alternative. And if public acknowledgement of the former constitutes "establishment of religion," so does the latter.

All of the Ten Commandments have a secular significance to the law. Even the first four Commandments, most directly involving Deity, reveal that there are a Higher Authority and Higher Law to which human law must be submissive--the only sure safeguard against tyranny by human government.

There is an unconstitutional establishment of religion created by the two federal court decisions.

The District Court's assertion that the state "draws its powersfrom the people, and not God" is a religious position (an anti-theistic one). This assertion throws the power of the court behind a religious view in violation of the Establishment Clause.

Both federal courts base their conclusions on the mythical "wall of separation" doctrine. This concept is not in the Constitution's text, is not supported by American history and tradition, and calls for the impossible (see #3b. and #3c. above). Because the mythical "separation" doctrine was created by the Supreme Court in 1947--156 years after the Establishment Clause was written, and therefore has no fixed content--federal courts have had to constantly re-define and create "tests" of "establishment." The most notably is the Lemon three-pronged test (Lemon v. Kurtzman, 1971). Since 1971, various Supreme Court Justices have exposed the true nature of this myth and the "tests" it has spawned, describing them as "all but useless," "mercurial in application," "unhistorical," "non-textual," and productive of a body of Establishment Clause law that is plagued with "insoluble paradoxes" and "unprincipled, conflicting litigation." Despite these fatal flaws in the "separation" myth and Lemon test, both federal courts utilize them as the basic standards for finding against the Chief Justice and the monument.
In a 1798 letter to American military officers, President John Adams declared that "The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the governance of any other." Chief Justice Roy Moore's installation of the Ten Commandments monument in the Alabama Judicial Building recognizes this truth. Chief Justice Moore does not violate the U. S. Constitution. The two federal courts who have ruled against him do.

http://www.eagleforum.org/court_watch/alerts/2003/aug03/RoyMoore-8-15-03.shtml
 
Ty said:
Well the first Amendment mentions that Congress can't create a law that impedes upon your religious liberties but that doesn't mean that the States couldn't mandate something against it.
Well, isn't that interesting. Where then does the power to issue a court order to move the monument come from?
 
I do not see anywhere in the First Amendment where it states that pubic sector employees may not acknowledge God, only congress.

EDIT: Looking at the First Amendment it does not say that congress may not acknowledge god even, only that it not create laws with regards to the establishment of religion or prohibiting the exercise of religious freedom. The act of recognizing God is not unconstitutional, it is a primary constitutional right.

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
 
That monument is a bit more elaborate then I had originally thought. I actually think there is good reason to deem that Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore might have a more serious case here then some would think. I believe that we had some dialogue here recently wrt where rights come from. (or where they ought to come from.) I believe America's founders held that rights ought to come from a higher power (God or creator of the Universe or what have you.) so that they are not conferred or taken away by the state. Interesting at any rate.

Defending the right to display the moral foundation of law

The Monument

The monument depicts the moral foundation of law in America, and bears excerpts from the text of the "Ten Commandments" of God. The monument also bears quotes from: the Declaration of Independence ("Laws of Nature and of Nature's God"); our National Motto ("In God We Trust"); the Pledge of Allegiance ("One Nation Under God, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for All"); and the Judiciary Act of 1789 ("So Help Me God").

TOP PANEL

"Ten Commandments" excerpts


FRONT PANEL

The inclusion of God in our pledge therefore would further acknowledge the dependence of our people and our government upon the moral directions of the Creator. —Legislative History

One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. —Pledge of Allegiance, 1954

Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. —James Wilson

And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? —Thomas Jefferson


LEFT SIDE PANEL

Let it simply be asked, where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? —George Washington

So help me God. —Judiciary Act of 1789

The greater part of evidence will always consist of the testimony of witnesses. This testimony is given under those solemn obligations which an appeal to the God of Truth impose; and if oaths should cease to be held sacred, our dearest and most valuable rights would become insecure. —John Jay


BACK PANEL

We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama. —Constitution of Alabama


In God we trust. —National Motto 1956

O thus be it ever when freemen shall stand
between their lov'd home and the war's desolation!
Blest with vict'ry and peace may the heav'n rescued land
praise the power that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto — "In God Is Our Trust,"
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave. —National Anthem

RIGHT SIDE PANEL

The laws of nature are the laws of God; whose authority can be superseded by no power on earth. —George Mason 1772

Laws of nature and of nature's God —Declaration of Independence 1776

The transcendent law of nature and of nature's God, which declares that the safety and happiness of society are the objects at which all political institutions aim, and to which all such institutions must be sacrificed. —James Madison

This law of nature, being co-eval with mankind and dictated by God Himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; …upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these. —William Blackstone

10CMonument-Alabama-color.jpg


http://www.tencommandmentsdefense.org/TenCommandmentsMonument.htm
 
I would like to start by saying i am an atheist. I personaly view this attack on religious items on government lands ( :rolleyes: ) as rather assinine. Like it our not christianity is apart of america. Simply having the ten commandments in front of a government office should not interefer with the work habits of functionality there of of all people there in.

Should we ban christmas as a government holiday? I don't hear to many complaining about this. It a religious holiday regardless of how you view it.

If you think christmas can be accepted as a nonreligious holiday then perhaps you can accept the ten commandments as moral constructs of a culture you do not share. When you "celebrate" christmas you do not celebrate its religiosity. Can you not accept the ten commandments for their worth outside of religion?
 
Legion said:
I would like to start by saying i am an atheist. I personaly view this attack on religious items on government lands ( :rolleyes: ) as rather assinine. Like it our not christianity is apart of america. Simply having the ten commandments in front of a government office should not interefer with the work habits of functionality there of of all people there in.

Oh I could not agree more. This dogmatic pursuit to erase all religious heritages from the history of the US is a ridiculous waste. It is not that everyone whom goes in the court is bothered by the sight of the monument or anything remotely close to that. Rather it is a few special interest groups whom are conducting the lawsuits for social political reasons.

Should we ban christmas as a government holiday? I don't hear to many complaining about this. It a religious holiday regardless of how you view it.

Why stop there, while you are at it erase Thanksgiving, Easter, Halloween … etc.

If you think christmas can be accepted as a nonreligious holiday then perhaps you can accept the ten commandments as moral constructs of a culture you do not share. When you "celebrate" christmas you do not celebrate its religiosity. Can you not accept the ten commandments for their worth outside of religion?

In Canada here last year city hall has always put up a Christmas tree for the holidays. It was suggested that they ought to rename the tree to a "holiday tree". In the US the hell bent egalitarians wanted once to eliminate mother and fathers days as something to be recognized in the public schools. These are just a couple of instances I can think of off the top of my head.

Regardless if people dislike the heritage of the US its founders thought that rights ought not to be conferred by the state and that we all have them naturally. This is the real fear behind the social engineering egalitarian mentality, if human rights do not come from the state then they cannot be taken away to help make certain equal outcomes.(as opposed to simple equal treatment.) If your right to private property, free speech, religious freedom, right to life (abortion) etc is not conferred by the state then it cannot by law be taken away. This way of thinking about rights is under grave assault and the bias is for a whole new (engineered) social and political model.
 
Ty said:
This is a Republic, not a Democracy.

Republic and Democracy aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, they are sorta unrelated.

You can have a Democratic Republic or a Democratic Dictatorship (in which a dictator with absolute power is elected every couple of years, cynics might say that strong presidential democracies like USA und Russia are kinda similar) or base-democratic town councils for some hippie community or whatever.

Likewise, there can be People's Republics and Soviet Republics and whatnot.

Always cracks me up when I read that the USA isn't a democracy but a republic. Happens quite frequently in this forum. The USA is a democracy AND a republic.
 
Ty said:
Once again I have to say that the Justices are not guilty of 'inventing' or 'creating' law.

That's not exactly true. Common Law systems like in the USA and UK leave judges a fair amount of room to create law (that's why precedents must be binding) by extending the meaning of similar laws to unrelated issues unless those are specifically covered by codified law.

Civil Law systems (prevalent in Central Europe) on the other hand follow rather strictly the principle of "nullum crimen, nulla poene sine legem" i.e. there can be neither crime nor punishment without a corresponding law.

Just to give an example...

Back in the 80s when computer crime began to become a problem, American judges simply sentenced perpetrators on grounds of laws which had nothing to do with it but covered somewhat similar things.

That way they factually created new laws dealing with new crimes since precedents are binding. In Civil Law systems, those people couldn't be sentenced since judges are not allowed to create law in that manner (in fact, they couldn't even if they wanted to since precedents aren't binding).

A couple of decades ago a German judge ruled that the prohibition of hauling wood from public forrests by horse cart also applies to self-propelled vehicles. That's pretty much as far as judges in Civil Law systems can extend the law and even in that minor case some argued it was going too far.

Common Law judges have a LOT more freedom and can, in fact, create law whenever something isn't specifically covered by codified law or binding precedents. And even if there is a precedent a Common Law judge could choose not to apply it (as long as he can reason it) and just do his own thing.
 
Sabastian said:
Legion said:
I would like to start by saying i am an atheist. I personaly view this attack on religious items on government lands ( :rolleyes: ) as rather assinine. Like it our not christianity is apart of america. Simply having the ten commandments in front of a government office should not interefer with the work habits of functionality there of of all people there in.

Oh I could not agree more. This dogmatic pursuit to erase all religious heritages from the history of the US is a ridiculous waste. It is not that everyone whom goes in the court is bothered by the sight of the monument or anything remotely close to that. Rather it is a few special interest groups whom are conducting the lawsuits for social political reasons.

Heritage? No. Religious dogma in our legal system? Yes.

Sabastian said:
Should we ban christmas as a government holiday? I don't hear to many complaining about this. It a religious holiday regardless of how you view it.

Why stop there, while you are at it erase Thanksgiving, Easter, Halloween … etc.

Christmas is no longer a religious holiday. I daresay the celebration of "christ" has been surpassed by the Tree with lights, presents, and Santa Claus. Easter is more about the bunny and eggs and sales at JcPenneys. Halloween is about dressing up and getting candy, and if you're juvenile, egging houses and cars. :) Thanksgiving is less about the puritans and native americans and more about turkey, family get togethers, and the macy's parade on 5th avenue in NYC.

Anyways, Halloween was never a religious holiday in terms of what we deem to be a "good" religion. It started as a satanic ritual. ;)

Legion said:
If you think christmas can be accepted as a nonreligious holiday then perhaps you can accept the ten commandments as moral constructs of a culture you do not share. When you "celebrate" christmas you do not celebrate its religiosity. Can you not accept the ten commandments for their worth outside of religion?

There are only two laws in the ten commandments that pertain to our justice system as being illegal. Murder and Theft. All of the other laws are not punishable in our legal system, so I don't think the ten commandments have any worth wrt our legal system. They contain good guidelines, but as I said, save for murder and theft, they have nothing to do with our legal system.

Sabastian said:
In Canada here last year city hall has always put up a Christmas tree for the holidays. It was suggested that they ought to rename the tree to a "holiday tree". In the US the hell bent egalitarians wanted once to eliminate mother and fathers days as something to be recognized in the public schools. These are just a couple of instances I can think of off the top of my head.

Renaming the tree is kind of silly. No one thinks of Jesus Christ when they look at a tree with decorations. :LOL:

However, I wonder what the mothers/fathers day thing has to do with religion.

Sabastian said:
Regardless if people dislike the heritage of the US its founders thought that rights ought not to be conferred by the state and that we all have them naturally. This is the real fear behind the social engineering egalitarian mentality, if human rights do not come from the state then they cannot be taken away to help make certain equal outcomes.(as opposed to simple equal treatment.) If your right to private property, free speech, religious freedom, right to life (abortion) etc is not conferred by the state then it cannot by law be taken away. This way of thinking about rights is under grave assault and the bias is for a whole new (engineered) social and political model.

The fear is that those in the judicial system will use their religious leanings to impose their religious beliefs on those who might not necessarily share them, as has been the case in the US in past years. That is where the majority of rulings against religious intermingling in government have stemmed from.
 
Heritage? No. Religious dogma in our legal system? Yes.

Exactly how would having the ten commandments in front a government building be an example of "religious dogma in our legal system"?
Christmas is no longer a religious holiday.

oh?

I daresay the celebration of "christ" has been surpassed by the Tree with lights, presents, and Santa Claus. Easter is more about the bunny and eggs and sales at JcPenneys. Halloween is about dressing up and getting candy, and if you're juvenile, egging houses and cars. :) Thanksgiving is less about the puritans and native americans and more about turkey, family get togethers, and the macy's parade on 5th avenue in NYC.

This was in part of the point I was making. People all over the US celebrate Christmas. However not all of them celebrate christmas as the birth of christ. This however does not change the fact that christmas is infact a religious holiday. Celebrating it is harmless. One has only to ignore the religiosity surrounding the holiday. Much could be said as true for the ten commandments. One has only to ignore the religion and acknowledge the moral constructs that are conveyed through the tablets. Morals, i might add, many of us share.

Anyways, Halloween was never a religious holiday in terms of what we deem to be a "good" religion.

How does that chang the fact that it is infact a religious holiday?

It started as a satanic ritual. ;)

I thought it started with the celebration of the victory the god Marduk.

There are only two laws in the ten commandments that pertain to our justice system as being illegal. Murder and Theft. All of the other laws are not punishable in our legal system, so I don't think the ten commandments have any worth wrt our legal system. They contain good guidelines, but as I said, save for murder and theft, they have nothing to do with our legal system.

I disagree. After glancing over the commandments i can say at least 4 apply to our justice system; "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor", "Thou shalt not kill", "Thou shalt not steal", and "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods".

Renaming the tree is kind of silly. No one thinks of Jesus Christ when they look at a tree with decorations. :LOL:

Really? No one does?

However, I wonder what the mothers/fathers day thing has to do with religion.

"Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee."

The fear is that those in the judicial system will use their religious leanings to impose their religious beliefs on those who might not necessarily share them, as has been the case in the US in past years. That is where the majority of rulings against religious intermingling in government have stemmed from.

Honestly, A set of ten commandments outside of a justice building is not apt to make some one do this. There is absolutely no threat here. If you perceive one you might as well try and prevent any christians from becoming a judge.
 
Legion said:
Heritage? No. Religious dogma in our legal system? Yes.

Exactly how would having the ten commandments in front a government building be an example of "religious dogma in our legal system"?

Have you read what this alabama judge has stated wrt the ten commandments and how it and god should be recognized in our legal system and judgement?

Legion said:
Christmas is no longer a religious holiday.

oh?

People of all religions all around the world celebrate christmas in entirely secular ways. Yom Kippur is most certainly a religious holiday. You don't see non-jews celebrating it. Same with Rosh Hashanah. You don't see non-muslims celebrating the holy month of Ramadan. But you see them participating in the celebrations surrounding easter with the bunny, eggs, and chocolate.

Legion said:
I daresay the celebration of "christ" has been surpassed by the Tree with lights, presents, and Santa Claus. Easter is more about the bunny and eggs and sales at JcPenneys. Halloween is about dressing up and getting candy, and if you're juvenile, egging houses and cars. :) Thanksgiving is less about the puritans and native americans and more about turkey, family get togethers, and the macy's parade on 5th avenue in NYC.

This was in part of the point I was making. People all over the US celebrate Christmas. However not all of them celebrate christmas as the birth of christ. This however does not change the fact that christmas is infact a religious holiday. Celebrating it is harmless. One has only to ignore the religiosity surrounding the holiday. Much could be said as true for the ten commandments. One has only to ignore the religion and acknowledge the moral constructs that are conveyed through the tablets. Morals, i might add, many of us share.

Morals are one thing. One doesn't need a tablet or religion to dictate morals. If the judge really wants to get the morals across, he can write up pamphlets and place them on a rack so anyone can pick them up and read them. No, the judge has stated that his intentions with this tablet are to press christianity forward in the judicial system.

Legion said:
Anyways, Halloween was never a religious holiday in terms of what we deem to be a "good" religion.

How does that chang the fact that it is infact a religious holiday?

You honestly think Halloween is celebrated as a religious holiday, or recognized as such?

Legion said:
It started as a satanic ritual. ;)

I thought it started with the celebration of the victory the god Marduk.

I've never heard of that one. The histories I've read have dealt with the recognition of the catholic saints (all hallow's eve aka all saint's day), the day of remembrance for disembodied souls who search for the living (which is why you dress up, to fool the souls so they won't take over your body), or a pagan ritual meant to worship satan. In terms of historic timeline, the pagan ritual came first, then all hallow's eve, then the day of remembrance (I believe the celts made this change).

But I don't know of any celebration of Marduk.

Legion said:
There are only two laws in the ten commandments that pertain to our justice system as being illegal. Murder and Theft. All of the other laws are not punishable in our legal system, so I don't think the ten commandments have any worth wrt our legal system. They contain good guidelines, but as I said, save for murder and theft, they have nothing to do with our legal system.

I disagree. After glancing over the commandments i can say at least 4 apply to our justice system; "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor", "Thou shalt not kill", "Thou shalt not steal", and "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods".

Coveting your neighbors goods or your neighbors wife is not a punishable offense. Idolatry is not punishable. Blaspheming is not punishable. Keeping the sabbath is not punishable. Not honoring your father and mother are not punishable.

Killing and stealing, most certainly. Bearing false witness is not a punishable offense either, unless you do it while under oath. You can certainly be sued for libel or defamation of character, but only killing and stealing can bring direct prosecution of the state down upon you.

Legion said:
The fear is that those in the judicial system will use their religious leanings to impose their religious beliefs on those who might not necessarily share them, as has been the case in the US in past years. That is where the majority of rulings against religious intermingling in government have stemmed from.

Honestly, A set of ten commandments outside of a justice building is not apt to make some one do this. There is absolutely no threat here. If you perceive one you might as well try and prevent any christians from becoming a judge.

I never said the commandments would cause someone to do this. I'm saying that the reasoning I gave earlier is what has been used to rule against religious intermingling in government.
 
akira888 said:
Ty said:
True. But many 'rights' we believe we have aren't explicitly written in the Constitution either. Religious Liberty? Fair Trial? Heck, I don't think 'Bill of Rights' ever appears in it even though we all refer to the first 10 amendments as it.

They sure are: Religious Liberty - First Amendment. Fair Trial - Sixth Amendment.

Bill of Rights

Funny how you make sense and people still babble. Good post Akira888, damn good post.
 
One doesn't need a tablet or religion to dictate morals.

If one needs an example, look at Confucianism. All the ethics, morality and common sense without the fearmongering and supernatural crap...
 
Willmeister said:
One doesn't need a tablet or religion to dictate morals.

If one needs an example, look at Confucianism. All the ethics, morality and common sense without the fearmongering and supernatural crap...

Don't sweeten it for us, give it to us straight.. :)

More fun

Cheers
Gubbi
 
Confucianism is very utilitarian. It's grounded in reality and common sense. You do not do things out of fear of an invisible supernatural father-figure that is always angry. You do things for the larger community as a whole. Confucianism is largely about civic duty for everyone.

Confucius mocked superstition, which is what religion is after you tear away the clerical crap.
 
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