Capcom's "Framework" game engine

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by one, Sep 6, 2006.

  1. Jesus2006

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Bavaria
    Yeah, looking at some foes in LP it looks much lesss than claimed, you can even see poly-edges on some of those big things - at least at that one in the demo at the start of the level, almost looks low-poly to me. But maybe they counting 2D-particles and environments in alot as well.
     
  2. nAo

    nAo Nutella Nutellae
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    4,325
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Yep, that's a kind of average number of triangles per frame we have in heavy scenes, being an average it can go up and down a lot (just to say that it also happens sometime to have > 4 Mtriangles per frame at 30 fps..expecially when in particular cases we render a lot of stuff in the shadow maps.. but to be sure we run at target frame rate we try to avoid those situations)
    Anyway I don't really think we need more triangles than that per frame (at least this generation); it's not about how many triangles you can push, but what kind of triangles we can push.
    We should get more clever at (dinamically) distribuiting geometry details only where it's absolutely needed, cause we, as game developers in general, are not being pariticularly smart at this (I don't consider static LOD to be an advanced rendering technique :p )

    Marco
     
  3. Dr. Nick

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    676
    Likes Received:
    1
    It might seem that way but I think they and many other Japanese devs are still behind the technical curve this gen. It will be sometime before we see a HS or Gears contender from them.
     
  4. archangelmorph

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,551
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    London
    Why do you say that?

    Name me one technical effect that either Gears or Heavenly sword does that you can't see in either DMC4, Lost Planet or Dead Rising?

    Granted they don't have normal mapped "everything" but the tech is present in the games mentioned, just not as predominate..

    To be honest I'd MUCH rather have the beautifully smooth and rich animation and motion blurr effects of Lost Planet than most of the effects in Gears..

    But thats just my oppinion.. (& this is slightly OT..)
     
  5. nAo

    nAo Nutella Nutellae
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    4,325
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Modern engines based on shaders are not that much about 'effects' anymore, once you have programmable hw one can tailor techniques to his needs.
    Usually every good engine shares a lot in common other good engines, but it also has some special thing that make images on screen feel and look different from any other engine (art direction apart..)

    Marco
     
  6. Dr. Nick

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    676
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hopefully this info isn't too redundant. Stole it from a forum that stole it from another forum.

    *As for multi-core optimization, the session mainly discussed methods for symmetric multi-core (Xbox 360). Since parallelization per module or loop which are often seen in parallel programming is not suitable for a game engine, parallelization per task including player character, enemy, bullet, camera, effect generator etc. is mainly used in the engine.

    *To suppress parallelization bugs such as dead lock, they made 2 clearly separated rules called "parallel update" which has no dependency and "synchronized update" in which each task can refer to and update other tasks. Task relationships and synchronization update intervals are adjustable on a GUI tool to make it easy to find parallel processes against the rules.

    *The performance for 1 thread vs 6 threads is, 2.6x in Dead Rising, and 2.15x in Lost Planet (under development). The CPU load is 80% for the main thread, 70% for rendering and sound, and 50-60% for other parallelized tasks.

    *There were only a few parallelization-related bugs against the rules in thousands of bug reports in the bug-checking period of the Dead Rising development, which shows totally parallelized application doesn't necessarily equal a bug-hell and they can realize stable parallelization thanks to the parallelization techniques and the strict rules in the Framework engine.

    *As for hi-def graphics, they pointed out "frame rate, fill rate, texture quality and size are more problematic than shader." Because of their estimation that 60fps is impossible for next-gen-esque imagery, they added lightweight 2.5D motion blur to make 30fps look smoother. Besides MSAA mini buffer is used in effect drawing to gain more fill rate (with the premise that GPU can use MSAA mini-buffer without cost). For better texture compression, they do original texture compression which appropriates an alpha channel for an extended information area and decompress it with programmable shaders.
     
  7. nAo

    nAo Nutella Nutellae
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    4,325
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    San Francisco
    I wonder why they did not use ATI 3Dc format..
     
  8. Dr. Nick

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    676
    Likes Received:
    1
    Jawed posted a list of formats supported but I didn't see 3Dc on it. Is there another name for 3Dc that I may have missed?
    If it is supported it could always be the case like someone posted earlier that this game may not remain 360 exclusive so they are probably better off not using it or it could have something to do with their engine.
     
  9. nAo

    nAo Nutella Nutellae
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    4,325
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Xenos supports it, AFAIK it supports ATI1N and ATI2N
     
  10. Dr. Nick

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    676
    Likes Received:
    1
    I asked a question about 3Dc a month ago in a round about way to see if I could get a straight answer from someone deving on the platform as to if the Xenos used it or not. What I got was an answer that I think has more to do with ATI gpus in general rather than Xenos specifically but this is what I was told maybe someone else can add to this?

    The person also mentioned that there was a cost per texel as well.
     
    #110 Dr. Nick, Jan 31, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2007
  11. Jesus2006

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Bavaria
    So you'd want to imply that PS3 would suffer smaller performance drain in this case at 4xAA, even without EDRAM (or exaclty for that reason?)?
     
  12. Fran

    Fran Dev
    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    49
    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    There are several tricks to reduce the impact of predicated tiling on vertex throughput (manual predication for example, 'cutting' your models in smaller and spatially coherent batches and so on), which help a lot reach the famous 5%. It's not a walk in the park though. It does require work. I'd say that in many situations 2X can be essentially free, while 4X has some more impact; free in terms of performance, but it's not even close to be free in terms of programmers time and development cost.

    Fran.
     
    Acert93 and AlBran like this.
  13. romiced

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    paris
    fran agrees you with this:

    1. more info on Xenon performance, 1 3.2Ghz core = 2/3 power of P4 3.2Ghz, but if use all 6 threads, you can get 4X performance.so Xenon 3.2Ghz 3 cores 6 SMT = P4EE 3.2Ghz 2 cores 4 SMT
     
  14. Fran

    Fran Dev
    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    49
    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    I think it's too hard to give meaningful numbers like this that hold in general. It does depend so much on exactly what you are trying to do.

    Fran.
     
  15. archangelmorph

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,551
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    London
    Tru, But what alot of people around here neglect to remember when they make statements like this:-

    Is that video game technology isn't all about rendering and displaying pretty pictures. Granted maybe my arguement probably wasn't given very well but I simply disagree that one can simply say something like "Japanese devs are behind when it comes to the technology" because as far as we know they could have very powerful and advanced tech for doing many other tasks unrelated to rendering..

    I understand the statement was probably made in the context to graphics which I guess is to be expected around here since that seems to be what invokes the most interest in threads in the tech forum but by saying "Capcom & many other Japanese devs" Dr Nick is infering that somehow the fact that these developers are Japanese is somehow linked to the fact that they are not on the forefront of computer games tech.. What about all those non-Japanese developers that aren't producing UE3 like visuals?
    If he'd have said "Capcom and many other devs" then I wouldn't have had a problem to be fair..
     
  16. one

    one Unruly Member
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,823
    Likes Received:
    153
    Location:
    Minato-ku, Tokyo
    OK so my looooong summary translation for Nishikawa's new article... :smile:

    http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20070131/3dlp.htm
     
    #116 one, Jan 31, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2007
    Mintmaster, Pete, Dr Evil and 6 others like this.
  17. nAo

    nAo Nutella Nutellae
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Messages:
    4,325
    Likes Received:
    93
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Really interesting! thanks one!!!
     
  18. TheChefO

    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,656
    Likes Received:
    32
    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Awesome stuff - Thanks one!

    notes I found interesting:

    -xenon ~ 3.2GHz P4EE dual core

    -vertex performance of the Xbox 360 GPU can match that of NVIDIA GeForce 8800

    -3million poly/frame @ 30fps - 90million poly/sec

    -10-40k poly per char 500k poly background

    -160mb textures at one time

    -dynamic 4x-0AA dependant on frame rate

    -multiple physics engines (Havok + custom multithreaded engine)

    -60fps next gen graphics "will be difficult" => 30fps + motion blur helps hide their lower frame rate

    -only 5 developers built the MT Framework Engine (adding help to transfer to ps3)

    -engine is currently in development for ps3

    -Devil May Cry and Resident Evil will both use the MT Framework Engine
     
    #118 TheChefO, Jan 31, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2007
  19. assen

    Veteran

    Joined:
    May 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,377
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Skirts of Vitosha
    I understand they are talking about diffuse texture compression, not necessarily NM, what has 3Dc to do with it?
     
  20. 22psi

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,365
    Likes Received:
    24
    Are they talking about triangle setup limit? :???:
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...