Can PS3 outperform new Onyx4 (probably no)?

megadrive0088 said:
London-boy, I understand what you are saying, and overall, I agree with you.

cool... i mean, one thousandth of 60fps is.... what is it? 0.06fps... which SHOULD BE one frame every 16 seconds.... which when u think about it aint too shabby everything considered...... ps2 would be able to replicate some of the effects PS3 will use, but if it did, it COULD take it 16 seconds to render each frame.... that is if the 1000x thing is true...
 
Of course, by such a standard for comparison, the PS2 would also be many times slower than the Xbox when the goal is exactly reproducing the specific results of an Xbox-tailored game like Panzer Dragoon Orta (with its quality and multitude of texture layers, pixel-level effects, and in-game 5.1 channel audio decoding.)
 
(with its quality and multitude of texture layers, pixel-level effects, and in-game 5.1 channel audio decoding.)

encoding actually.. sorry to nitpick, its a pet peeve of mine when people mix that up.
 
Lazy8s said:
Of course, by such a standard for comparison, the PS2 would also be many times slower than the Xbox when the goal is exactly reproducing the specific results of an Xbox-tailored game like Panzer Dragoon Orta (with its quality and multitude of texture layers, pixel-level effects, and in-game 5.1 channel audio decoding.)

And XBox will be slower than ps2 when try to do game that uses ps2 strengths that many developers talked about.
 
Tsmit42:
And XBox will be slower than ps2 when try to do game that uses ps2 strengths that many developers talked about.
You're not getting the point. This nebulous concept of "power" can't be quantitatively compared (unless of course, by "power", you're actually referring to a measure regarding electricity...)

While it's possible to directly compare things related to individual properties like geometry or texturing or whatever performance (and even then, differences in approaches and algorithms can make it difficult), there's no guidance to tell us how important these properties are in relation to each other and to the overall scheme. By nature, that is where our assessments cross over into subjective territory.

My point is that one standard can be as good as another. Example being that PS2's disadvantage to Xbox would vary in magnitude depending on from which system or game you're making the reference of performance - the PS2 would be much further behind if the standards were of Panzer Dragoon Orta than on Jak and Daxter standards, for instance.
 
I think Tsmit42's point was perfectly valid. You just don't like to think that Xbox could possibly come behind PS2 in any particular manner.
 
Lazy8s said:
Example being that PS2's disadvantage to Xbox would vary in magnitude depending on from which system or game you're making the reference of performance - the PS2 would be much further behind if the standards were of Panzer Dragoon Orta than on Jak and Daxter standards, for instance.

Funny that you word yourself in a way to always make PS2, no matter what the circumstances, always inferior to XB. Of course this is not true, and I'm not even going to bother explaining to you why that is the case.

Naturally, one might say this is just to be expected coming from a guy that can't accept that bloody Schmenue isn't the best-looking game ever made. ;)


*G*
 
Game comparisions are difficult to make...

Often the limiting factor when comparing a possible version ( in your case PS2 P.dragoon - Lazy8s ) are not anything to do with the T&L power or graphics chip, but basic things such as memory...
The biggest advantage the Xbox has other PS2 is the 64Mb of ram - this, when combined with the standard S3TC compression allows much larger assets , in terms of textures and geometry, to be stored locally, and used in rendering.
 
Crazyace:
Often the limiting factor when comparing a possible version ( in your case PS2 P.dragoon - Lazy8s ) are not anything to do with the T&L power or graphics chip, but basic things such as memory...
While it takes subjectivity to determine standards for comparing overall system performance and, as a result, no specific example would be the definitive one, it's no less compelling to be performance-bound in a game example by a resource like memory than to one like calculation speed or flexibility. The overall design behind the architecture dictates the implementation of memory... it's integral.

And depending on someone's personal valuation for properties of image quality in relation to the whole and to other rendering properties like geometry or lighting, limited memory might be most detrimental. So it goes with me for PS2 and Dreamcast, as DC's more plentiful display RAM leads to greater strength in image qualities - a much higher percentage of full framebuffer, higher-res games which helps lead to a my preferred look in proscan enabled, native-VGA output.
 
comparisions are often futile

If comparing two machines designed to do almost the same job is so difficult, then asking whether a home console will compete with a high end rendering and simulation machine verges on the comical. Memory and fast disk storage may well be the only difference between the 2 ( especially as the SGI
machine is using ATI chips that are little different to their consumer versions available currentyl... )



Consoles are designed to run connected to TV's ( and until all TVs worldwide support HDTV or VGA in we're likely to be hit by interlace flicker problems for a while )
Connecting a DC to VGA did give improvements for the best games - but it also showed bad texturing and jaggy lines on a lot of otheres....


... any DC to PS2 comparisions probally need to go into a seperate thread though....
;)
 
Crazyace:
If comparing two machines designed to do almost the same job is so difficult,
Those comparisons come down to a matter of perspective... finding common ground in the case of DC vs PS2 is more difficult than other comparisons, though. Viewpoints there are so much more polarized simply because each machine has been outperforming the other at opposite ends of the spectrum, working in almost diametric opposition - high image quality and texturing versus high geometry and fillrate-intensive effects.

There's not the same fundamental rift when comparing to Xbox, however. When it comes to geometry, Xbox doesn't give anything away - EA benchmarked it as more than twice as capable using custom toolsets for each system. And examples such as Panzer Dragoon Orta are as over-the-top with screen effects and particles as any. Texturing, lighting, custom effects, and image quality all shine by comparison on Microsoft's newer machine. So, essentially, to like the capabilities of the other consoles is to like the all-around improved Xbox's even more.
then asking whether a home console will compete with a high end rendering and simulation machine verges on the comical.
It's certainly a tough comparison to make... would have to be limited to only select areas of performance since, functionally and purposefully, we're talking about very different types of fruit. Apples to oranges at the very least.
Consoles are designed to run connected to TV's ( and until all TVs worldwide support HDTV or VGA in we're likely to be hit by interlace flicker problems for a while )
Market acceptance and demographics don't change the fact that one console is offering a technological advantage over another.
Connecting a DC to VGA did give improvements for the best games - but it also showed bad texturing and jaggy lines on a lot of otheres....
High resolution clarity doesn't add anything... it's a totally positive effect. If some other element is weak or mismatched, not providing good balance between underlying visual elements is more of a design mistake.
 
High resolution clarity doesn't add anything... it's a totally positive effect.
Thing is, 640x480 is everything but 'high resolution' if you watch it on a sharp, large VGA monitor, where you can count every pixel on the screen (in that resolution).

It's like the old emulated games from SNES and Genesis that ran in 320x200 and look blocky as all hell if you play them on emulators without any additional filters enabled, while they still look reasonably fine and more natural on a TV screen due to slight pixel blurring and color bleeding.
 
marconelly!:
Thing is, 640x480 is everything but 'high resolution' if you watch it on a sharp, large VGA monitor, where you can count every pixel on the screen (in that resolution).
While a very blurry picture will obscure any trait, both intended detail as well as unwanted effects, increased sharpness is not the cause for pixels standing out. The actual culprit is mismatched graphic design - either too ambitious or too conservative of a gradation in shape or color for a given resolution. The degree of fineness in a resolution determines the degree of change an image can have before pixel boundaries become annoying, and a break in this consistency resulting from a mismatch causes blockiness at that space and is referred to as pixelation.

Older games with digitized graphics, like the early Mortal Kombats and full-motion-video games for the SEGA CD, are at times examples of too ambitious gradation. Because digitizing involves sampling high-detail source pictures and scaling them into lower resolutions, there'll be pixelation from areas trying to represent too steep of a change in detail for the available space (This was also sometimes caused by a limited color pallete - just another form of mismatch.)

A 2D fighter from Capcom in Dreamcast VGA is an example of a too-conservative design mismatch. Dreamcast VGA is 640x480, but the graphics for Capcom's 2D fighters were originally conceived at a lower res. To scale the discrepency, the graphics just get blown up to the higher res... not redrawn at the new level of detail to naturally take advantage of the extra smoothness afforded. So, blockiness occurs with pixels where the inflated image doesn't curve as much as it could.

However, it's entirely possible to match gradations in an image's color and shape correctly to a resolution... any resolution, and certainly one as robust as 640x480... even on a big and sharp monitor. In fact, most Dreamcast games handle this just fine, such as the Guilty Gear X games (if you've ever been fortunate enough to see their jaw-dropping display on a monitor.) Unlike Capcom's 2D fighters, this 2D spectacle was actually conceived for 640x480, and the graphics are just as smooth as a drawing in a comic book dancing around the screen in crystal-clear native Dreamcast VGA. You certainly wouldn't be able to "count every pixel", much less be aware of them. The clarity would only be making the visuals that much slicker.

Also, of course, common sense tells us to sit back the appropriate distance from a screen proportional to its size, as must be done with a TV the same as with a monitor. That might also solve some of these misconceived problems.
It's like the old emulated games from SNES and Genesis that ran in 320x200 and look blocky as all hell if you play them on emulators without any additional filters enabled,
I've played the 16-bit Sonic the Hedgehog in the SEGA Smash Pack on my Dreamcast VGA, and it wasn't blocky looking. Actually, looked amazing with the crisp detail. Those emulators you were seeing might have inflated the lower-res graphics for a higher-res screen resulting in pixelation, or you also might have been sitting closer than recommended for the monitor.
while they still look reasonably fine and more natural on a TV screen due to slight pixel blurring and color bleeding.
Controlled and purposeful pixel/color blending is great for some anti-alaising and filtering effects because the programmer is properly taking advantage of the inevitable trade-off. But TV blurring/bleeding, resulting from its own inadequacy, trades away enough good detail until the picture looks like it's been put through a washing machine for far too many cycles.
 
Lazy8s said:
However, it's entirely possible to match gradations in an image's color and shape correctly to a resolution... any resolution, and certainly one as robust as 640x480... even on a big and sharp monitor. In fact, most Dreamcast games handle this just fine, such as the Guilty Gear X games (if you've ever been fortunate enough to see their jaw-dropping display on a monitor.) Unlike Capcom's 2D fighters, this 2D spectacle was actually conceived for 640x480, and the graphics are just as smooth as a drawing in a comic book dancing around the screen in crystal-clear native Dreamcast VGA. You certainly wouldn't be able to "count every pixel", much less be aware of them. The clarity would only be making the visuals that much slicker.


i wasn't aware that there is a dreamcast version of Guilty Gear. But playing GGX2 on PS2 in progressive scan is a joy. by far the best 2D game i've ever witnessed.
Lazy, if u really liked Guilty Gear, then u should try GGX2 on ps2, in pro-scan. it's just about perfect for a 2D game.

Chap: i'm pretty sure that, at least compared to current generation, the image quality of PS3 won't be a problem. Of course there might be offerings from the competition that might be better, but i'm sure the image quality in the next generation will be more than pretty enough for 99.9% of TV freaks with the best plasma screens and all that.... remember that in this generation IQ was fucked up big time especiall in Europe (no pro-scan for Xbox and GC) but i'm sure that in 2006 the powers that be will be smart enough to just include hi-res options in every game, so that the geeks with HDTV's wont be disappointed...
 
london-boy:
i wasn't aware that there is a dreamcast version of Guilty Gear.
Yep. It was actually created on Dreamcast/Naomi and became quite popular. It was later ported to PS2.
Lazy, if u really liked Guilty Gear, then u should try GGX2 on ps2, in pro-scan. it's just about perfect for a 2D game.
Agreed about the proscan thing; that's how the DC/Naomi versions output. Especially sexy colors through its native VGA, too. This whole hi-res 2D thing finally allows for controllable, truly anime-quality graphical immersion here, and it's disappointing to see this new frontier go largely unexplored. And while I love the Jet Set Radios and what 3D cel-shading can do, there's still plenty of room for new 2D game expressions from a staunch 2D supporter like Capcom... they could really breathe fresh life into the visuals by mastering all of their 2D games for 640x480.
 
i mean, i was playing CapcomVSMarvel2 or something like that (u know, after the 4th one u start losing count...) on DC the other day at a friend's house and the low res graphics just plain hurt... didnt hurt as much as the utter button-smash mess that is the game itself, but hey we're talking about graphics... and with "hurt" i mean phisically, i actually hurt my thumb pretty badly... :LOL:
 
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