Buying a new pc, need help with some issues

K

KnightOfDarkness

Newcomer
Basically, I've got a considerable budget of say $4000-5000 for a new computer for college. Now I wanna make this baby my gaming bitch...I hate to sound like I have some kinda ego problem and wanna have only "the best" hardware, but considering the amount of cash I am gonna invest into it, I do want to make a worthy purchase. The thing is, I've got quite a few dilemmas at hand in deciding what to buy or whether I should wait for a while before I purchase. Please, I am gonna touch on the CPU and other parts of the computer with my questions, but its all under the topic of 3D technology because I want this PC to make it so that it eats games like Doom 3 for breakfast. So, if u don't mind, I will proceed on with the questions.

My first concern is the CPU. What should I get? The P4 2.53 GHz looks really nice, but then the Athlon 2200 is great for its performance and value. Now obviously u guys know this and I don't plan to teach ne one ne lessons here. But the thing is, I will be upgrading this computer more often than I have in the past (let's say at least more often than once in four years :p, I am looking at more like once a year if not every six months), so I want it to have some compatibility for future CPU's I upgrade to because I really don't wanna replace the motherboard (mb) after a new chip comes out. The question is, when Intel ditches the Northwood, which I think will happen very soon, will the new architecture, work on the 850E mb using PC1066 RAM (Rambus)? I know Intel is moving on to DDR now, but will the new chips still be made to be compatible with the 850E architecture? I am going with that mb cause it supports PC1066 RAM which from all benchmarks I've seen, seem to dominate in terms of performance; even DDR400 can't catch up to it (btw, am I wrong in thinking that PC1066 is the best RAM solution?). But if Intel's new mb uses dual channel DDR400 for its new chip, then will the 4.2 GB/s bandwidth of PC1066 still be sufficient for the new chip? I have tried finding info on whether this compatibility will be available with newer chips, but was unsuccessful, so I'd really appreciate ne input in this.

The second concern, still regarding CPU's, is whether I should ditch the P4 and go for an Athlon 2200 considering the difference between the two in performance is not too great, though noticeable. The thing is if I do take a 2200, based on the Thoroughbred, then when the new Barton comes out will I be able to upgrade to that using the same mb? Better yet, will the new Hammers, preferably the Sledgehammer, be compatible with the mb considering it has more than double the number of pins? And if it isn't, which I am sure is the case, then will the new mb for the Hammers be very expensive? In addition, if it is better to get an AMD, then what RAM should I get? I know that PC2700 is the best but what is its speed? BTW, I forgot to mention that whatever RAM, CPU and mb I get, I am getting 1024 MB of that RAM and putting it in Corsair setup (is that possible on 1024 MB because i didn't see them have support for that much RAM on their website). So will this setup really boost performance that much?

Now, my final question regarding CPU's. Should I just wait and not get the computer yet? Is it too late now to get the "latest" because very soon this "latest" tech will be replaced by the new techs? I don't wanna buy the computer, which will prolly take place during the end of august if I do buy it, and then find out that the next month Intel announced its 3.0 GHz (insert architecture name) architecture P4 .

Okay, now with the CPU's done, the next question: displays. Is it worth getting a 17 inch LCD over a 19 inch CRT? I mean, does an LCD help with the gaming experience in ne way, or does it deter it from being the best experience in ne way? I want to enjoy my gaming without having to worry about visual artifacts being generated due to the nature of the screen. I really do need some insight into this.

Finally, my last computer related question. Is there really a need for a DVD burner of ne sort? Wll it serve handy in ne way?

As for the graphics card, I will probably get a geforce4 Ti 4600 with TV out, and hold off on the R300 or the NV30. But another simple question while I am talking about graphics cards. If I do upgrade to an r300 or an NV30, will that create any problems in the upgrade considering they are AGP 8x cards?

Those r my computer related questions, though I have two off topic questions for ne one who could give me any assistance:

1. Is it true that computers are stolen in college dorms, specifically desktop computers? I can understand laptops being stolen, but desktops too?

(Warning--Completely OT)
2. Is it wise to take off-campus housing for your first year of college or will that affect your socialization?

Alright thanks to anyone who got this far :), and even more thanks to ne one who has replied to this :D. I really appreciate the insight. I am sorry that the post is filled with so many questions, but I am confused with what to do. Thanks again.
 
HI there,

I just saw your question and no-one seems to reply on it, so I though as one of b3d's members it was my duty to give you some insight..hehehe
:) I'm in the same process now, I sold my 2nd PC and am looking for something new.

First of all, at least wait untill Intel releases the Pentium 4 3Ghz, price cuts are coming, so that will save some money.

Man that's quite a budget!
OK here we go, all I give here is based on my own experience and is my personal point of view!

A good start for a PC is the monitor. Most people tend to close the budget with the monitor, which is really stupid. If you buy a good monitor, it can last for years. My monitor costed $3000 5 years ago and it's still a top of the line monitor. It can handle quake up toi 2048*1536 without a hitch.
Recommendations? Philips, Sony Trtiniton (Business or Professional line) or a mitsubitsu Diamontron based screen. Personally I don't like the Diamondtron or Triniton screens, because of the correction lines in the screen. You need to see and compare!!!! Take your time! I would spent at least $1250 for your monitor.

I would never buy LCD for gaming, I have used serveral LCD screens and for gaming there is nothing better as a good CRT. I have used the Hercules 720 Prophetview, IIyama screens, Philips screens and Dell lcd's and they all suck for gaming (sorry I had to put it that way). Washed out colors and blurry, only good for office use.

Now cpu:
Stay away from rambus, not only it's more expensive, you won't need it.
DDR is the way to go. Intel will be ditching rambus for the consumer market.

AMD vs Intel.
In the past I would recommend AMD without a hitch. AMD delivered more value for money. The problem with AMD is heat. You need very good cooling, which can be noisy. If you really want the top of the line for a cpu, go for Pentium 4 2.4 or higher. Just wait untill the price cuts are done by INtel (shouldn't be long now). If you have a 2.4 or higher, I don't think AMD has a CPU to match. You might want to check online reviews on chipsets (Sis VS Intel), SiS based mobo's are cheaper and quite fast too.
For AMD, I own the MSI KT3 Ultra, which is fast and quire cheap too. With your budget I would buy onboard raid controller. And two HD's!

Hammer will not be compatible with the current slot interfaces, if I'm right.
I you can and want to wait till next year...it's too soon to tell whether Hammer would be valid option (you need a new OS for example)

1024MB of ram: BUY IT!!! 2 sticks of 512MB ram.
All mobo's support at least till 2GB of ram. Samsung, cosair, crucial all come recommended. Cosair will cost you a lot, take a look at samsung!
Cosair uses samsung chips on their ram sticks....

DVD burner? No. Wait untill there is a good standard.
Hmmm the AGP story...all new cards are AGP4X compliant.

I never went to college, I went to university in europe...
Hope this helps....
 
My experience with my two LCD screens tend to show that the color are best with LCD than CRT [especially in DVI], depending on the monitor response time, you have more or less 'blur', take it as free motion blur at worste ;)

I find Intel to be far too costy, and I prefer AMD, but I agree that AMD CPU heat a bit too much, however newer fab process should help.


I'm also looking for a new PC, I'm looking for AMD system with ASUS A7V8X (KT400) motherboard, with 512MB DDR RAM 400MHz, and maybe serial ATA Hard disk drive.
 
Thanks for the input Marco, i really appreciate it.

So as I understand what ur saying, I shouldn't buy the best CPU available? I guess its a wise decision to take...hmm...also I don't know if u do the answer to this, which may by why u didn't answer the question in your previous post, but will Intel's new architecture support the motherboard of the Northwood?

Also, I don't quite understand the need for two hard drives, especially since I am planning to purchase a WD 120 GB 7200 RPM drive, so is that not enough? U'll have to forgive me on my incompetance on the need for storage space, because for the last four years I have been surviving on an 8 GB hard drive :p.

As for the monitor, that's an interesting point you bring up. However, are you suggesting that I get a good monitor for its durability or because the image quality has that much of an effect during gaming?

Regarding RAM, you sure that its better to get DDR, considering the performance that is shown by the PC1066. I know Intel will be ditching Rambus, but until dual channel DDR333 or (hopefully) DDR400 becomes the standard, won't PC1066 still hold the crown for being the performance king? I am sorry for rubbing this in, but I really do want the best hardware possible in this setup.

Ne way, sorry for tossing this at you, but I need to make sure its a satisfactory purchase...btw what specs you looking at for your new purchase?

Thanks again.

Edit: Thanks for your reply Ingenu.

If LCD's are good for DVI, does this imply that they are good for gaming too? I mean, free motion blur? doesn't that hinder the gameplay affect to a certain extent. I mean if I have a MS FSAA scheme running and then have the added motion blur effect, won't that rather bog down the IQ? I am not sure about any of this, just asking because honestly I have NO EXPERIENCE with LCD's.

Okay, now without taking cost into consideration, is the P4 worh it over AMD in terms of performance? What i mean to say is will i notice the difference between the two CPU's when playing games, not when running LightWave optimized for SSE2 or ne thing like that?

Thanks again.
 
$5K is too damn much to be spending on a computer these days... :LOL:

You're talking a huge diminishing point of return above $1000.

Get whatever CPU/mobo tickles your fancy, P4, Athlon, both are great. Don't spend over $300.

Add in 512MB DDR for about $100.

GF4 ti4200, $150.

Drives, sound card, networking, case, etc., blah.... lets say $350.

So that takes you to $900.

Add in a nice 19" CRT monitor, preferably with a Sony FD Trinitron or Mitsu Diamondtron tube. That should run about $300.

Now take that $4k you saved and go have a good time. Mmmkay? Maybe even save a bit of it to upgrade to a Radeon 9700/Hammer setup when those beasts are available. ;)

Take it from someone who's graduating in 5 days, there's much more to college than being holed up playing computer games. You can still have a great system, money left over, and not feel like a dumbass for dropping 5 grand on a box of metal and silicon when the real action is going to be far outside that box. Trust me on this...you'll thank me later. ;)

I would advise you to live in the dorms as a freshman. I wouldn't worry about stealing...especially if you put together a reasonable system and not a $5k lesson in decadent obsolescence. Chain/lock the thing to your desk if you don't trust the people around you.
 
IMHO is not a good idea put $5000 in a new computer.
I agree with Dolemite that anything above $1200 will give you diminished returns.
 
Dolemite said:
...especially if you put together a reasonable system and not a $5k lesson in decadent obsolescence.
Click to expand...

LOL!
It's only going to be a good lesson if it's his own money though. I think you have get such a lesson at least once, and it should HURT so that you remember it well.
For me it was blowing $5000 on a couple of loudspeakers, when that was all the money I had. :)

Come to think of it, I wish I had $5000 to blow on loudspeakers now - youth (and crummy judgement) had its advantages. ;)

Entropy
 
Yeah but guys, this isn't my own money here...I didn't exactly work for it and earn it. Man, earning $5k all by myself at this age?! I'd be crazy to do that and my dad would kick my ass cuz he'd think that I was wasting time earning money when I should be studying. So u know, that is why I wanna make this the best possible purchase I can which is why I want the best in it. Ne one have ne idea when the 3 GHz Intel P4 will come out? And u think that it'll have performance over the Barton and Hammer? I know its too early to tell but knowing what we do know, such has Hyper-Threading being in the new 3 GHz intel chip and Hammer having SSE2 built in and a 64-bit architecture, ne one willing to make ne guesses? Thanx.
 
There are many things coming like R300, NV30, hammer, new nforces, serial ATA, many USB 2.0 products, new intel chipsets with DDR333, etc...
IMHO this is a bad time to buy everything.

Maybe you could buy the minimal GPU/CPU/mobo/mem best price/performance now and upgrade next year.

Also will you have much time to play games in your first year? ;)
 
Don't remember if I mentionned it already, to lazy to reread the thread ^^

I'm waiting for the ASUS A7V8X, based on Via KT400 with Serial ATA, DDR400 support, USB2.0, AGP8x and enhanced VLink (bridge between north and south chipset).

You can wait too :)
And if by the time this motherboard ships the video card you want isn't available, you can buy some low price card to wait for the one you're really interested in.
 
OK, I'll try ot be helpful, but remember - peoples priorities are different.
This is long, btw. I felt guilty about my previous unhelpful reply.

First off, $4-5000 is excessive even for a high-end Wintel box. Furthermore even the highest end you could buy now would feel tired in 18 months time, and would be painfully slow in 3 years time. You don't want that. You would be MUCH better off explaining to your father that it would be silly to blow all that money now and that you would rather have it put into a computer fund/account from which you could withdraw what you needed as time went on. His heart would swell with fatherly pride over the wisdom and prudence of his son, and you would be able to keep at the top of the PC food chain for the duration of your studies, rather than just 5 months.

The above is key - paying more than twice the price for 10% performance as you do at the top end is pointless, unless you really have to spend it all at once. Plus, overspending on nerdy tech never impressed the chicks.

So, having ensured that you have the funds to upgrade when you feel the urge in the future, we can get down to the actual shopping.

The most important choice IMHO is the display(s). In contrast to most of the system, the display will not be exchanged regularly. And since you are going to spend endless hours staring at it, it had better be good. If you are going to play any games that require precision control, or are fast moving, a CRT is basically the only alternative. Even more so if you do colour critical work. LCDs have benefits in physical size and image stability, so it may or may not make sense to add an LCD panel to the DVI output on your card. Two monitors require even more space though, and for a student, I'd recommend a single 21" screen. Make sure that the screen is flat, and with good anti-reflective coating. I've had good luck with Sonys' monitors, and I'd recommend the E530 for its dual inputs and 95+Hz at 1600x1200. The F520R is a really good CRT, if price is no object.
Unfortunately, monitors depend on the correct adjustment of numerous analog parameters, and not all of them are typically accessible to the end user. If you can look at the particular sample beforehand, great. If not, go with a manufacturer that has good QA. Don't skimp on your screen. Plus, it is real difficult to stuff a 21" CRT in a bag and carry it off discreetly.

Next on the list - mouse and keyboard.
Not that sexy, I know, but like the monitor, you use these a lot. I'd recommend the Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro, but then I really value good ergonomics, and not everyone get used to a split keyboard. For a mouse, I'd recommend a Logitech Dual Optical. Every hardcore Q3 player I know who has one loves it. As far as not loosing tracking goes, it is as close to a good ball mouse as opticals get atm. Me, I prefer a good ball mouse, but then I find cleaning the mouse soothing. Like stuffing a pipe. :)
If you attach it over PS2, set your polling rate to 200Hz. Over USB it is fixed at a lower but still ok rate, so you needn't care in that case.

Next down the list - cabinet.
Most students sleep, work, listen to music, eat....in the same room as their computers. It should be quiet. One way of achieving a reasonably quiet system is to go with water-cooling. I'd recommend a Koolance PC2-C cabinet. Add a waterblock for the gpu, if possible. Otherwise, try to convert the GPU to passive cooling. A watercooling setup is not quite as quiet as the most quiet air cooled systems, but is acceptable, and gives you bragging rights. ;) Use a Q-tech 300W PSU or some other near-silent power supply.

Harddrives.
Seagate barracuda 4 or if it is available at the time of purchase, the recently announced barracuda 5. Buy at least 2. You could go for three, and have the OS on one disk, and programs + data on a RAID1 mirror. Another alternative is to have system+apps+data on separate partitions on one disk, and use the other for ghost-images and scratch space.
You absolutely and unequivocally need a secondary disk for backup. Don't for a moment believe that you will have the discipline to perform that function over CD-R or DVD-R.


OK that took care of the stuff that will have a long life in your system. For CPU, motherboard, memory and gfx - calculate with a full replacement every 18-24 months, with sometimes more frequent upgrades of CPU and gfx only. Pass the parts that you replace on to less economically fortunate friends. (Don't give it to them, let them buy it cheaply). These frequent upgrades let you have the budget version of the best pretty much continously, and takes away the big drama of buying hardware since you don't invest as heavily.

Motherboard, CPU and memory.
Atm, the P4s are the performance champs, primarily due to their superior memory subsystems. I would sit tight (if I could) and buy a Dual-DDR P4 motherboard, preferably SIS. Populate it with a 2.53 GHz P4, and dual 512MB sticks of DDR333 or possibly DDR400 if the price is OK at the time. That gives you a gigabyte of RAM, and headroom to overclock your fsb if you want to take advantage your cooling setup, and get really respectable main memory bandwidth. Plus AGP8x, FireWire, USB2 and so on.

It also gives you multiple upgrade options. You could toss in a Prescott when they come 2H03, and have sufficient bandwidth for it. Or you could decide that a dual hammer would be neat, and sell off the CPU and MB and keep the memory. Et cetera.

Gfx-card
This is easy. Go for the lowest clocked variation of the R9700. Two drawbacks - it draws a lot of power and is therefore probably not suited for conversion to passive cooling. Secondly, ATI does not support 3D-glasses. :( Anyone who is in the least interested in 3D-Graphics owe themselves to try out a pair of good 3D-glasses at high refreshrates and fps, with a program that is suited to it. I first encountered such glasses in the 80s on SGI workstations, but the better consumer products today are said to be OK. It is not good for shooters or games with 2D elements, but with the right source material it will expose this whole "2D-projection of a 3D-world" for the sorry excuse it is. You need to try it. Sadly, it rules out ATIs otherwise excellent offerings.

You might consider getting a cheap laptop. An iBook if you'd like to sample OSX, but I guess you are more PC-centric. Get something small and cheap and small with a loooong battery life. Did I mention small? You only want this for writing, keeping schedules, being secretary at meetings, transferring files et cetera - forget about 3D. You can use the same one for your entire education, if it holds up. But something portable is really, really useful and no PDA is versatile or practical enough as anything but glorified Filofaxes. (They are good at that though)


Enough hardware. I'd recommend you to live on campus until you've gotten your bearings and get to know some people. If you are a normal guy, at some point you'll grow to hate the people you are forced to live with, and you'll know that it's time to move on. Or you'll meet a girl, and she'll tell you. ;)

And KnightofDarkness?
Good luck. :)

Entropy
 
KnightOfDarkness said:
Yeah but guys, this isn't my own money here...I didn't exactly work for it and earn it. Man, earning $5k all by myself at this age?! I'd be crazy to do that and my dad would kick my ass cuz he'd think that I was wasting time earning money when I should be studying. So u know, that is why I wanna make this the best possible purchase I can which is why I want the best in it. Ne one have ne idea when the 3 GHz Intel P4 will come out? And u think that it'll have performance over the Barton and Hammer? I know its too early to tell but knowing what we do know, such has Hyper-Threading being in the new 3 GHz intel chip and Hammer having SSE2 built in and a 64-bit architecture, ne one willing to make ne guesses? Thanx.
Click to expand...

Your parents might thank you someday for not blowing all their money... ;)

Honestly, unless you feel like you need to spend all that money, I'd just put together a modest system but just make sure your parents know you could've blown it all but didn't. Buying a mid-level system and then just upgrading as necessary will always give you much better price/performance than letting today's high-end depreciate and become relatively slower. If for some reason (teenage nu-metal angst?) you feel the need to actually spend $5k on a computer, just get a decent system and throw in a 42" plasma display or DLP projector as a dual monitor setup with a normal CRT or LCD monitor for web-browsing and stuff. Drop another $1k on a decent receiver/speaker system and you'd have a badass HTPC.

My only perspective on this situation, is when I was going to college, I got a full room/board/tuition scholarship so my parents let me spend $10k of the money they had saved for college on a car. Now you can bet I spent every cent of that money, but of course a $10k used car is relatively modest compared to a $5k computer these days, so even though I'd be tempted given the chance to spend $5k on a computer, I'd hope that the fact that I could get a top of the line system for 1/4 of that would give me some restraint.

I'm still driving that car 4.5 years later, but there's no chance today's high end computer components will even be competitive after less than half that time, so I just couldn't justify such an expenditure.

At the risk of starting to sound like an old fart, I'd have to say that young people these days just don't know the value of a dollar. :rolleyes: So keep studying and all that, but in a certain way you might learn more about life, money, and what really matters if you had to work for things instead of just having them handed to you. That doesn't mean you shouldn't let your parents buy you a nice computer, but at least think about where that money is coming from and what other things could be done with it.
 
IF you're an absolute performance freak, and want every last ounce of performance then you'll want a P4 on a fat 533mhz bus with 1066mhz rdram. Intel is releasing a 2.8ghz P4 in a couple of weeks. It will, of course cost a pretty penny. If you can 'handle' being 5-10% slower than a top of the line intel system go with the athlon. AMD will be releasing a XP2600+ chip in the next few days that is quite the screamer. Essentially performance equivalent to intels current top of the line 2.533 + 1066rdram. That'll save you money. If I had 4-5K to spend I'd go with the intel + rdram (you'll still come in well under $4K). Of course I'd never budget that much for a PC so in reality, I'd get the XP2600+.

Ram? 512megs of either 1066rdram(performance oriented) or DDR2700 (value).

Definitely go with the radeon9700Pro.

Monitor? Dont scrimp here. And be honest with yourself: if this machine is going to be a gaming ninja with work being done a secondary concern, get yourself a good CRT (I'll personally never buy a monitor other than sony, but thats based on my personal experiences and opinion). If work/reading/writing is the primary purpose, get a 17-19" LCD. Gaming WILL suffer comparitively though.
 
WRT the monitor:

If you don't like trinitrons (like me) take a look at the Samsung 950p+/1100p+. Although they are quite cheap (especially the 950p+) the visual quality is (IMO) great. Perhaps a drawback: the 1100p+ "only" has ~115kHz.

BTW, I don't like trinitrons because of their stabilisation wires, but they are primarily an issue for me because as a software engineer I'm looking at a lot of black text on white background all day. Under these conditions the wires are definitely visible and IMO annoying. But I don't think you will notice them in games.
 
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