BR/HD-DVD Thread

Mythos · Jan 11, 2005

Do you guys think that IF Microsoft was to use HD-DVD on the Xenon that they and the HD-DVD format missed out on an opportunity to roll out the hype carpet?

Also, would this imply that there might be some issues on setting a next generation DVD format for Xenon?

(Specially with EA&VU format support)

snacky · Jan 11, 2005

Acert93 said:

A basic question:

Can HD DVD hold 2hrs of 1080i content? 1080p?
Click to expand...

Either format can hold essentially ANY length of content. 2 hours, 20 hours, you name it. This is because you can lower the bitrate to a very low level if you feel like it. However, this will result in compression artifacts. With h.264, moderate compression artifacts remove detail from the image, making it look more flat, blurry, or smeared. This is in contrast to most other codecs, where artifacts appear as blocking and ringing.

If I may change topic in mid-post, I have a serious question for the HD movie enthusiasts. Considering the quality of the image that comes from films, higher resolution images will mostly mean that we will more clearly be able to see all the damn "film grain" and noise. We are already in danger of running up against this barrier, viz., that there just isn't that much detail in the original. If you watch a DVD on a high resolution monitor, e.g., an SVGA monitor, you can clearly see this noise. Additionally, because of low shutter speeds, motion in films is not crisp at all - very blurry. This fault will only become more obvious on a sharper display. So why should the average consumer bother switching to HD? Even if moviemakers start using better film and cameras, there's not much that can be done about the fundamental lack of good detail in (nearly) all the films up to the present date.

-tkf- · Jan 11, 2005

snacky said:

Even if moviemakers start using better film and cameras, there's not much that can be done about the fundamental lack of good detail in (nearly) all the films up to the present date.
Click to expand...

Grain is many things makes you wonder how you can project a movie on to a big screen (Cinema sized screen )...

But consider this, when film is scanned for digital projection they use2K and 4K scanners:

MAGER XEÂ® can scan 35mm 4perfs at 4096 * 3112 pixels in full and 35mm 8perfs at 4096 * 6144 pixels. This can be sub-sampled to 3K, 2K and 1K with retaining the quality of 4K. This also features an option to scan 16mm film including Super 16 and 35mm 3 perfs.
Click to expand...

http://www.ise.imagica.co.jp/english/IMAGER/index.html

And more general info here:

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Makeup/4303/dpx.html

snacky · Jan 11, 2005

IMNSHO many films look just awful on the big screen precisely because the details are such a mess. But in practice, some of it is probably just dust or imperfections on the particular reel. Presumably there is a master copy that looks better (but still not quite perfect, to judge from what I normally see on DVDs).

As for the blurriness in high motion scenes, it literally makes me queasy to see it on a big screen. It looks less bad on a small screen mainly because it doesn't induce quite so much motion sickness. This is NOT something that can be fixed by any type of processing.

TheAlSpark · Jan 11, 2005

Won't see any grain from those George Lucas Films.

Especially not AotC at the very least.

Deepak · Jan 13, 2005

The Practical Superiority of HD-DVD

When new technologies emerge, there are always competitors, and the current battle raging between the Blu-ray DVD standard (HP, Panasonic, Sony, etc.) and the newer HD-DVD technology (NEC, Sanyo, Toshiba) is no exception. A clear winner hasn't emerged, but looking at the history of this sort of battle, it's apparent to me that HD-DVD will win. Here's why.

Both technologies are targeting the same market: HDTV and data storage. HD-DVD emphasizes HDTV, with a 30GB capacity and a smoother backward compatibility with current DVD technology. A Blu-ray disc holds a whopping 50GB on two layers; Sony has announced an eight-layer drive to hold 200GB. The latter sounds like an ideal backup medium, but making a drive with four writable layers on each side that works outside the lab seems far-fetched.

The scene is further complicated by the competing compression schemes. The recently ratified H.264 (or H.264/AVC), otherwise known as MPEG-4 Part 10â€”the latest iteration of the MPEG-4 standardâ€”can produce images of better quality than MPEG-2 (used by DVD technology), with twice the compression. HD images require around seven times the disk capacity of SD (standard definition) TV images when recorded. (I derived this number by using an HD-DVR.) With H.264 and 30GB, you have the MPEG-2 equivalency of about 60GB, which should easily hold an HD movie. The Blu-ray has much more leeway.

If H.264 isn't good enough, then there is the Microsoft VC-1 codec, derived from Windows Media 9 technology. By all accounts, it's at least as good as, if not better than, H.264. It's so good that the Blu-ray specification calls for it to be used jointly with H.264. From an objective standpoint, we have a superior technology in Blu-ray competing with something not as good. It sounds like the Betamax versus VHS battle. But there I would argue that the definition of superior was in the eyes of the beholder. That's the problem with judging technology based on one's perception or definition of superiority. Users found VHS technology was superior, because the tapes could hold more hours of programming. And this was more important to them than image quality.

We must examine technologies in terms of what I call practical superiority: the differentiation that is responsible for eventual success in the marketplace. Then we must consider secondary issues of politics and promotion. If all things are equal, can one technology overtake the other with superior marketing?

If we look at capacity alone, Blu-ray is clearly superior. I suspect that just as the image-quality gap was eventually closed between VHS and Beta, the capacity gap will close here too. So what is HD-DVD's practical superiority? It's cheaper to make and more easily made backward-compatible. Cheaper to make is the key here, especially in a world where the emphasis is shifting to places like India and China. If image quality is the same, the cheaper product will win. Thus the major Hollywood studios have said they'll support HD-DVD. Sony Entertainment, of course, won't (yet).

Then there are the politics of thisâ€”the most interesting aspect. First, the DVD Forum has endorsed HD-DVD and not Blu-ray. The Sony-led Blu-ray consortium probably didn't think this was important, after witnessing the emergence of DVD+RW without any support from the DVD Forum.

Another subtext is the copy-protection mechanism. The HD-DVD system is being sold as uncrackable. True or not, it sounds good to Hollywood. Blu-ray seems more liberal in its approach, with "limited-copy" mechanisms similar to those found on DAT recorders. This factor alone could kill Blu-ray among the paranoid Hollywood types. One copy, even if legal, is to be avoided as far as they are concerned.

Then there are the codecs. Manufacturers have to pay for each one installed in every unit. So how long will VC-1 and H.264 coexist in the same boxes when they do the same thing? Do we need two formats? I sense the cheap-thinking HD-DVD folks are ready to scrap VC-1, while Blu-ray is not.

The final factor is the arrows-in-the-back phenomenon, which occurs when a technology comes out too far ahead of the curveâ€”as Blu-ray did. It's been around for years without getting any traction. This makes it seem oldâ€”or as if it never worked right. "Blu-ray, I've heard of that. Did they ever get it to work?" Meanwhile, HD-DVD is new and jazzy.

When you put these factors together, along with Sony's track record for being on the wrong side of the technology split, it's hard to see Blu-ray winning this one. Hello, HD-DVD!

Now do a postmortem.

one · Jan 13, 2005

Deepak said:

Another subtext is the copy-protection mechanism. The HD-DVD system is being sold as uncrackable. True or not, it sounds good to Hollywood. Blu-ray seems more liberal in its approach, with "limited-copy" mechanisms similar to those found on DAT recorders. This factor alone could kill Blu-ray among the paranoid Hollywood types. One copy, even if legal, is to be avoided as far as they are concerned.

Then there are the codecs. Manufacturers have to pay for each one installed in every unit. So how long will VC-1 and H.264 coexist in the same boxes when they do the same thing? Do we need two formats? I sense the cheap-thinking HD-DVD folks are ready to scrap VC-1, while Blu-ray is not.
Click to expand...

Is this PC-magazine writer on crack or something?
Is HD-DVD newer and can it hold 30GB in 1 layer? noooooo.....

London Geezer · Jan 13, 2005

Deepak said:

The Practical Superiority of HD-DVD

When new technologies emerge, there are always competitors, and the current battle raging between the Blu-ray DVD standard (HP, Panasonic, Sony, etc.) and the newer HD-DVD technology (NEC, Sanyo, Toshiba) is no exception. A clear winner hasn't emerged, but looking at the history of this sort of battle, it's apparent to me that HD-DVD will win. Here's why.

Both technologies are targeting the same market: HDTV and data storage. HD-DVD emphasizes HDTV, with a 30GB capacity and a smoother backward compatibility with current DVD technology. A Blu-ray disc holds a whopping 50GB on two layers; Sony has announced an eight-layer drive to hold 200GB. The latter sounds like an ideal backup medium, but making a drive with four writable layers on each side that works outside the lab seems far-fetched.

The scene is further complicated by the competing compression schemes. The recently ratified H.264 (or H.264/AVC), otherwise known as MPEG-4 Part 10â€”the latest iteration of the MPEG-4 standardâ€”can produce images of better quality than MPEG-2 (used by DVD technology), with twice the compression. HD images require around seven times the disk capacity of SD (standard definition) TV images when recorded. (I derived this number by using an HD-DVR.) With H.264 and 30GB, you have the MPEG-2 equivalency of about 60GB, which should easily hold an HD movie. The Blu-ray has much more leeway.

If H.264 isn't good enough, then there is the Microsoft VC-1 codec, derived from Windows Media 9 technology. By all accounts, it's at least as good as, if not better than, H.264. It's so good that the Blu-ray specification calls for it to be used jointly with H.264. From an objective standpoint, we have a superior technology in Blu-ray competing with something not as good. It sounds like the Betamax versus VHS battle. But there I would argue that the definition of superior was in the eyes of the beholder. That's the problem with judging technology based on one's perception or definition of superiority. Users found VHS technology was superior, because the tapes could hold more hours of programming. And this was more important to them than image quality.

We must examine technologies in terms of what I call practical superiority: the differentiation that is responsible for eventual success in the marketplace. Then we must consider secondary issues of politics and promotion. If all things are equal, can one technology overtake the other with superior marketing?

If we look at capacity alone, Blu-ray is clearly superior. I suspect that just as the image-quality gap was eventually closed between VHS and Beta, the capacity gap will close here too. So what is HD-DVD's practical superiority? It's cheaper to make and more easily made backward-compatible. Cheaper to make is the key here, especially in a world where the emphasis is shifting to places like India and China. If image quality is the same, the cheaper product will win. Thus the major Hollywood studios have said they'll support HD-DVD. Sony Entertainment, of course, won't (yet).

Then there are the politics of thisâ€”the most interesting aspect. First, the DVD Forum has endorsed HD-DVD and not Blu-ray. The Sony-led Blu-ray consortium probably didn't think this was important, after witnessing the emergence of DVD+RW without any support from the DVD Forum.

Another subtext is the copy-protection mechanism. The HD-DVD system is being sold as uncrackable. True or not, it sounds good to Hollywood. Blu-ray seems more liberal in its approach, with "limited-copy" mechanisms similar to those found on DAT recorders. This factor alone could kill Blu-ray among the paranoid Hollywood types. One copy, even if legal, is to be avoided as far as they are concerned.

Then there are the codecs. Manufacturers have to pay for each one installed in every unit. So how long will VC-1 and H.264 coexist in the same boxes when they do the same thing? Do we need two formats? I sense the cheap-thinking HD-DVD folks are ready to scrap VC-1, while Blu-ray is not.

The final factor is the arrows-in-the-back phenomenon, which occurs when a technology comes out too far ahead of the curveâ€”as Blu-ray did. It's been around for years without getting any traction. This makes it seem oldâ€”or as if it never worked right. "Blu-ray, I've heard of that. Did they ever get it to work?" Meanwhile, HD-DVD is new and jazzy.

When you put these factors together, along with Sony's track record for being on the wrong side of the technology split, it's hard to see Blu-ray winning this one. Hello, HD-DVD!

Now do a postmortem.
Click to expand...

That was a fun read...

wco81 · Jan 13, 2005

What is Dvorak's record on predictions?

There are so many things wrong with his assumptions it's hard to begin where.

First of all, HD-DVD is cheaper to manufacture the discs initially. That is expected to change over time and can be amortized by volume. But these are costs not prices. Prices at retail can be whatever the studios decide they can charge.

Second, China is pushing their own next-gen formats. Plus, they are not interested in high-price, high-quality formats necessarily. They lived with VCDs for awhile after DVD was available for instance. The Japanese CE makers didn't spend millions to develop these formats so that some cheap Chinese manufacturers could underprice them like they did with the DVD.

Third, both formats are considering the same copy-protection system, namely AACS. This system will give the studios control over how much copying privileges they want to allow.

He harps on the Betamax comparison but neglects to mention that Blu-Ray has far more hardware support whereas Betamax failed because most manufacturers refused to pay the high license fees Sony demanded on the Betamax. One of the biggest and most vocal supporters of Blu-Ray is Panasonic (Matsushita), whose support of VHS was decisive in the VCR format war.

KnightBreed · Jan 13, 2005

There are a number of points in his article that are quite incorrect.
1) He didn't come out and say it, but HD DVD is 30GB also on 2 layers, just like Blu-ray.
2) Both HD DVD and Blu-ray support VC-1 and MPEG4-AVC (though Blu-ray supports the newer High Profile).
3) There haven't been any products brought to the US market yet that support it. How can Blu-ray be seen as old technology?
4) Easily made backwards compatible? What the hell does that mean? Of course HD DVD and Blu-ray players will read old DVD discs. There is no question of this whatsoever. What difference does it make to the consumer how it works?

The irony is, HD DVD will win purely on stupidity and ignorance of the populace. This Dvorak fellow is a perfect example where one's incorrect preconceived ideas will help kill the superior format. A story posted to Yahoo News will likely be read by thousands of people, who will then spread this crap to their friends and family telling them to get HD DVD because it's "better."

I call it the LCD-initiative. Plasma is the superior technology in a number of ways, but consumer electronic stores continue to push LCD because of burn-in and fictional dimming issues.

London Geezer · Jan 13, 2005

KnightBreed said:

There are a number of points in his article that are quite incorrect.
1) He didn't come out and say it, but HD DVD is 30GB also on 2 layers, just like Blu-ray.
2) Both HD DVD and Blu-ray support VC-1 and MPEG4-AVC (though Blu-ray supports the newer High Profile).
3) There haven't been any products brought to the US market yet that support it. How can Blu-ray be seen as old technology?
4) Easily made backwards compatible? What the hell does that mean? Of course HD DVD and Blu-ray players will read old DVD discs. There is no question of this whatsoever. What difference does it make to the consumer how it works?

The irony is, HD DVD will win purely on stupidity and ignorance of the populace. This Dvorak fellow is a perfect example where one's incorrect preconceived ideas will help kill the superior format. A story posted to Yahoo News will likely be read by thousands of people, who will then spread this crap to their friends and family telling them to get HD DVD because it's "better."

I call it the LCD-initiative. Plasma is the superior technology in a number of ways, but consumer electronic stores continue to push LCD because of burn-in and fictional dimming issues.
Click to expand...

I agree on everything, obviously, since most of it is fact. But the LCD thing... mmm, it really depends on the use. Computer monitors really can't be plasma, and not because of myths or fictional issues. TVs, i see a lot more Plasma screens around than i see LCD ones. And The People(TM) have already been educated that Flat TV = Plasma.
I have seen some LCD TVs and i must say they're very nice. Plasma has its advantages, and LCD has others.
Personally i'd go for a proper projector.

cthellis42 · Jan 13, 2005

Ah, Dvorak... Usually tries to hard to be a fun read, but his analysis usually seems to be lacking, and this article proves no different.

At any rate, since we've already done much more--and better--analysis between the two in this very thread, how about we just go back to business as usual? Heh.

gleemax · Jan 13, 2005

I like Dvorak, but his predictions aren't reliable. For example, he predicted* that Apple would switch to Intel processors in 12-18 months.

*in 2003

cthellis42 · Jan 13, 2005

I know. That's why I'd rather things didn't get derailed by him. We all know the tech industry is filled with its own pundits. There's no need to hash over what he said--we can all see what he was glossing over, arguing incompletely, whatever. (In fact I think we've covered just about everything he was talking about from at least two different angles extensively already. )

It's better to just let that die, wait for new HD/BR info to pop up, and continue as normal. ^_^

KnightBreed · Jan 14, 2005

london-boy said:

I agree on everything, obviously, since most of it is fact. But the LCD thing... mmm, it really depends on the use. Computer monitors really can't be plasma, and not because of myths or fictional issues. TVs, i see a lot more Plasma screens around than i see LCD ones. And The People(TM) have already been educated that Flat TV = Plasma.
I have seen some LCD TVs and i must say they're very nice. Plasma has its advantages, and LCD has others.
Personally i'd go for a proper projector.
Click to expand...

I made it a point to say superior "in a number of ways", implying not every way. The advantages to LCD is resolution for a given panel size and lack of burn-in potential (though this is considerably less of an issue nowadays), which is precisely what makes them perfect for computer use.

Yea I prefer watching movies on my projector, but eventually I'd like to get a smaller 40-45" flat panel for daily TV viewing.

Um, we got a little off topic... Go Blu-ray or some such...

snacky · Jan 14, 2005

John C. Dvorak - PC Magazine said:

The Practical Superiority of HD-DVD

If H.264 isn't good enough, then there is the Microsoft VC-1 codec, derived from Windows Media 9 technology. By all accounts, it's at least as good as, if not better than, H.264.
Click to expand...

Typical uninformed tech mag reporting (yes, John Dvorak skimps to meet deadlines, too). VC-1 is basically a "lite" version of h.264 that's designed to require less CPU power to decode. It achieves this at the expense of coding efficiency.

The main reasons it got worked into the new disc standards are:

There are already decent commodity hardware wmv9 decoders

Any general-purpose decoder with enough power to decode a good h.264 stream will also have enough CPU power to decode vc-1

vc-1 and h.264 are similar enough that it's not an undue burden for the hardware makers to support both

MS seems to now have a lot of pull and influence in this area of the market, not all of which is strictly connected to the technical superiority of their ideas...

Cheaper to make is the key here, especially in a world where the emphasis is shifting to places like India and China.
Click to expand...

Typical throwing around of xenophobic buzzwords without having any idea what the economics of the situation are.

Let's try some logic. Manufacturing discs has NEVER been very labor-intensive -- it's always been a relatively capital-intensive area. The existence of India and China has no particular impact on this argument at all. Dvorak has no idea what the hell he is talking about, and he hopes his readers won't notice. Grasping at straws, really.

wco81 · Jan 14, 2005

Plus it sounds like MS is undercutting everyone else on royalties.

PC-Engine · Jan 19, 2005

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babe...co.jp/av/docs/20050107/ces05.htm&lp=ja_en

<img src=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050106/ces01_08.jpg height=300 width=409><img src=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050106/ces01_09.jpg height=300 width=409>
<img src=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050107/ces05_03.jpg height=300 width=409><img src=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050107/ces05_04.jpg height=300 width=409>
<img src=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050107/ces05_02.jpg height=300 width=409><img src=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050107/ces05_10.jpg height=300 width=409>
<img src=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050107/ces05_07.jpg height=300 width=409><img src=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050107/ces05_09.jpg height=300 width=409>
<img src=http://www.hddvdprg.com/press/toshiba/t-04.jpg height=300 width=409><img src=http://www.hddvdprg.com/press/toshiba/t-03.jpg height=300 width=409>
<img src=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050107/ces05_00.jpg height=300 width=409>

Official HD DVD group website.

http://www.hddvdprg.com/

2005 HD DVD releases.
Paramount

The Manchurian Candidate
Spongebob Squarepantes
Elizabethtown
Coach Carter
Italian Jpb
School of Rock
Sky Captain and The World of Tommrow
Forrest Gump
Brave Heart
Ghost
Grease
Mission Impossible 2
Black Rain
Save The Last Dance
Sleepy Hollow
U2 Rattle & Hum
Vanilla Sky
Lara Croft:Tomb raider
Star Trek:First Contact
We Were Soldiers

Universal

Van Helsing
The Bourne Supremacy
The Choronicles of Riddick
(Or less schedule)
Appllo13
U-571
12Monkeys
Dune
The Thing
End of Days
Backdraft
Waterworld
The Bone Collector
Spy Game
Pitch Black
Conan the Barbarian
Dante's Peak

Time Warner (WHV/HBO/New Line)

Above the Law
Alexander
Angels in America (HBO)
Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery (New Line)
Batman Begins
Blade (New Line)
Catwoman
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Constantine
Contact
Dark City (New Line)
The Dukes of Hazzard
Eraser
Executive Decision
Final Destination (New Line)
Friday (New Line)
From the Earth to the Moon (HBO)
The Fugitive
Gothika
Hard to Kill
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
House of Wax (2005)
The Last Samurai
The Mask (New Line)
The Matrix
The Matrix Reloaded
The Matrix Revolutions
Maverick
Million Dollar Baby
The Music Man
Mystic River
Next of Kin
North by Northwest
Ocean's Eleven
Ocean's Twelve
Passenger 57
The Perfect Storm
The Phantom of the Opera (2004)
The Player (New Line)
The Polar Express
Red Planet
Rush Hour (New Line)
Se7en (New Line)
Soldier
The Sopranos (HBO)
Spawn (New Line)
Swordfish
Troy
Under Siege
U.S. Marshals
Wild Wild West

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/pcworld/20050107/tc_pcworld/119204&e=5

Toshiba, NEC, and Sanyo Electric say players for the format will be available starting as early as September this year, and Warner Home Video, Universal Pictures, and Paramount Pictures announced 89 titles that will be available on the new format at or close to its launch in the fourth quarter.

For Toshiba and other hardware makers, the announcement increases the pressure on them to get their first devices ready in time, Yamada says.

Toshiba and Sanyo say they plan to offer HD-DVD players in the fourth quarter. NEC says it will have a read-only PC drive in September and a rewritable drive available before the end of the year. Toshiba also says it plans to put on sale a notebook PC with HD-DVD support by the end of 2005.
Click to expand...

Thomson's Film Grain Technology Approved as Low Cost Compression Format for HD DVD Video Markets

2005 International CES

PARIS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Dec. 20, 2004--
Thomson Technology has been Adopted in MPEG-4 AVC (H.264) Standard and is Supported by Studios in the DVD Forum for its Rendering of HD Video at Low Cost

Thomson (Euronext Paris:18453) (NYSE:TMS) today announced that its Film Grain technology was approved as an optional HD DVD-Video application format for the next generation high definition DVD disc (HD DVD disc) by the DVD Forum Steering Committee which met on December 1st in Orlando, Florida. Two major studios, part of the DVD Steering Committee, namely Walt Disney Company and Warner Bros., support adoption of the technology.

Film Grain is an important enhancement for delivering HD content to consumers. Film Grain technology was specified and developed by Thomson's research group in Princeton in collaboration with Thomson's Technicolor business.

The Film Grain tool is a set of algorithms that automatically estimates film grain parameters, thereby enabling the editing and manipulation of picture quality after high compression processing. This enables low bit rate transfers and limited storage capacity for HD videos while preserving the creator's touch. Thomson will present a demonstration of Film Grain at the CES trade show to be held in Las Vegas from January 6th-9th 2005.

Thomson will continue to work within the DVD Forum Technical Coordination Group to obtain approval of Film Grain technology for HD DVD players at the DVD Steering Committee scheduled to take place in Tokyo on February 23-24th 2005.

"Thomson Film Grain technology provides content owners the potential to more efficiently compress motion picture material, while still maintaining the required high quality to the consumer. This efficiency gain translates directly into the potential for content owners to carry additional content on physical media with fixed capacity, or network distribution systems with fixed bandwidth," said Christopher J. Cookson, President Warner Bros. Technical Operations Inc.

"Thomson's technology enables HD movies to be squeezed onto a single DVD with a quality that preserves the film taste. Industry experts from several Hollywood studios participated in formal blind tests in Tokyo and Los Angeles and were amazed by the consistently improved performance brought by Film Grain to MPEG-4 AVC high profile on motion and still pictures. Thomson is proud to make available the specifications of the Film Grain, including support of trick modes, and the HD DVD player to the industry through several licensing options. We believe that these revolutionary tools will make HD content distribution easy and affordable to consumers and will accelerate the penetration of HD into households," said Jean-Charles Hourcade, SEVP Technology Division and Chief Technology Officer at Thomson.

About Thomson -- Partner to the Media & Entertainment Industries

Thomson (Euronext Paris:18453) (NYSE:TMS) provides technology, systems and services to help its Media & Entertainment clients -- content creators, content distributors and users of its technology -- realize their business goals and optimize their performance in a rapidly changing technology environment. The Group intends to become the preferred partner to the Media & Entertainment Industries through its Technicolor, Grass Valley, RCA and Thomson brands.
Click to expand...

London Geezer · Jan 19, 2005

PC-Engine said:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fav%2Fdocs%2F20050107%2Fces05.htm&lp=ja_en

<img src=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050106/ces01_08.jpg height=300 width=409><img src=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050106/ces01_09.jpg height=300 width=409>
<a href=http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050107/ces05_03.jpg target=_blank>
Click to expand...

Very nice.

Ty · Jan 19, 2005

That is sweet looking for sure!

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That marketshare discussion that won't stop invading every other thread spawn