Been corresponding with Kyle @ HardOCP

[Natoma]

Sigh... Most recent is at the top.

I am not in the business of pushing morality and ethics on folks. I will leave that for orgainized religion.
______________________________

Kyle Bennett
Editor-in-Chief @ HardOCP.com
Proprietor @ Ratpadz.com
______________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: --------------------- [mailto:------------------------------------------]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 1:55 PM
To: Kyle Bennett
Subject: Re: Have you considered the possibility of artificially inflating Timedemo scores?


I understand where you are coming from. However, from a consumer standpoint I think it's your duty as a journalist to provide both sides of the coin. In this case, while you may agree/disgree with the tactics provided by Nvidia, the point is that they went into a benchmark that is used around the world and implemented strategies to boost their scores, in the hopes that they would not get caught. Again, to use my analogy from earlier, do put the bankrobber in jail for robbing the bank? Or do you put the bank owners in jail for not securing their bank well enough?

I understand that you try to base your opinions on hardware on the results you get. But as a journalist, being more than just a hardware reviewer imo, I think this point stands, especially if you see the need to comment on the situation. I feel that you do us as consumers a disservice if you do not address the moral shortcomings of a company that would artificially inflate its standing in industry standard benchmarks. Just as a journalist from any other field would be doing a disservice to consumers imo if they did not address any particular problems in their field of expertise.

-----------------------

---------------------------------------
Infinity Interactive, Inc.
306 W. 38th Street
14th Floor, Suite #1
New York, NY 10018
http://www.iinteractive.com

V: 212.388.9100 x104
F: 212.388.0303
E:---------------------
---------------------------------------
Notable Quotables:

"Programming today is a race between
software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs,
and the Universe trying to produce bigger
and better idiots. So far, the Universe is
winning." -- Anonymous

"Expecting the world to treat you fairly
because you are a good person is a little
like expecting the bull not to attack you
because you are a vegetarian."
-- Dennis Wholey
---------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Kyle Bennett
To: ---------------------
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 2:48 PM
Subject: RE: Have you considered the possibility of artificially inflating Timedemo scores?


We base our hardware evaluations on the hardware. Don't be confused about that.

______________________________

Kyle Bennett
Editor-in-Chief @ HardOCP.com
Proprietor @ Ratpadz.com
______________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: --------------------- [mailto:---------------------]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 1:40 PM
To: Kyle Bennett
Subject: Re: Have you considered the possibility of artificially inflating Timedemo scores?


Exactly. But, you do admit that you hold sway over the purchasing decisions for many people who are looking for expert advice no? So in that case, Morality can indeed be influenced by the press.

-----------------------

---------------------------------------
Infinity Interactive, Inc.
306 W. 38th Street
14th Floor, Suite #1
New York, NY 10018
http://www.iinteractive.com

V: 212.388.9100 x104
F: 212.388.0303
E: ---------------------
---------------------------------------
Notable Quotables:

"Programming today is a race between
software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs,
and the Universe trying to produce bigger
and better idiots. So far, the Universe is
winning." -- Anonymous

"Expecting the world to treat you fairly
because you are a good person is a little
like expecting the bull not to attack you
because you are a vegetarian."
-- Dennis Wholey
---------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Kyle Bennett
To: ---------------------
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 1:15 PM
Subject: RE: Have you considered the possibility of artificially inflating Timedemo scores?


Morality calls need to be made by YOUR wallet, not the press.

______________________________

Kyle Bennett
Editor-in-Chief @ HardOCP.com
Proprietor @ Ratpadz.com
______________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: --------------------- [mailto:---------------------]
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 5:43 AM
To: Kyle Bennett
Cc: steve@hardocp.com; brent@hardocp.com
Subject: Re: Have you considered the possibility of artificially inflating Timedemo scores?


Ok. I guess what I'm trying to steer towards in all this would be the following situation.

Someone robs a bank. They get caught, or so it seems. Instead of fessing up to their 'crime,' they blame the bank for not having appropriate security. They say the bank made it far too easy for them or anyone else to break in, thus invalidating the bank as a place to store money. Does that necessarily validate their actions, and should they still not get time in the 'slammer,' as it were?

As I stated earlier, I'm interested in the 'morality' of the companies I buy from, as well as the performance of the purchases I make. While I know it is not necessarily your job as a reviewer to get into such details, in this case, does it not warrant the undivided attention of those who would be the media-tors in this dispute?

Again, thank you for reading and taking the time to respond. It is appreciated.

-----------------------

---------------------------------------
Infinity Interactive, Inc.
306 W. 38th Street
14th Floor, Suite #1
New York, NY 10018
http://www.iinteractive.com

V: 212.388.9100 x104
F: 212.388.0303
E: ---------------------
---------------------------------------
Notable Quotables:

"Programming today is a race between
software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs,
and the Universe trying to produce bigger
and better idiots. So far, the Universe is
winning." -- Anonymous

"Expecting the world to treat you fairly
because you are a good person is a little
like expecting the bull not to attack you
because you are a vegetarian."
-- Dennis Wholey
---------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Kyle Bennett
To: ---------------------
Cc: steve@hardocp.com ; brent@hardocp.com
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: Have you considered the possibility of artificially inflating Timedemo scores?


Yes, I have and it is quite easy to do. For the Q3 engine I like to use JK2. I even use a custom map. The truth is all in the scaling of scores not neccisarily looking "off the rail".

Our mission is to be able to suggest to you the hardware that will best run the games you want. And it is that simple.

______________________________

Kyle Bennett
Editor-in-Chief @ HardOCP.com
Proprietor @ Ratpadz.com
______________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: --------------------- [mailto:---------------------]
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:10 PM
To: Kyle Bennett
Cc: steve@hardocp.com; brent@hardocp.com
Subject: Re: Have you considered the possibility of artificially inflating Timedemo scores?


Have you actually recorded almost identical demos to the established standards like demo1 in Quake 3, and run them to test for this? I'm curious to know if you have, has anything has come of it?

I purchase whatever card runs my games the best. However, I don't like the idea of a company I purchase anything from engaging in potentially unethical behavior, especially when it can affect my gaming experience. I wouldn't consider myself a 3D expert, but I do my best to purchase from 'moral' companies.

As someone once said, paraphrased naturally, once you even suspect someone's work is in question, everything they do is tainted. As a consumer who looks to websites and magazines to garner my purchasing information, I hope that all angles of the problem are resolved in an unbiased manner.

Thanks for reading and responding. Much abliged.

-----------------------

---------------------------------------
Infinity Interactive, Inc.
306 W. 38th Street
14th Floor, Suite #1
New York, NY 10018
http://www.iinteractive.com

V: 212.388.9100 x104
F: 212.388.0303
E: ---------------------
---------------------------------------
Notable Quotables:

"Programming today is a race between
software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs,
and the Universe trying to produce bigger
and better idiots. So far, the Universe is
winning." -- Anonymous

"Expecting the world to treat you fairly
because you are a good person is a little
like expecting the bull not to attack you
because you are a vegetarian."
-- Dennis Wholey
---------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Kyle Bennett
To: ---------------------
Cc: steve@hardocp.com ; brent@hardocp.com
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:01 PM
Subject: RE: Have you considered the possibility of artificially inflating Timedemo scores?


Of course we have considered this can be done in in-game timedemos.

We can record our own demos in the games mentioned and check for such irregularities.

The only reason that "NVIDIA was caught" was because ATI took the information to FutureMark and they delivered it to their supposed journalists on their Beta Program as well.

Thanks for your points, but we can very easily test for the issues you bring up.

______________________________

Kyle Bennett
Editor-in-Chief @ HardOCP.com
Proprietor @ Ratpadz.com
______________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: --------------------- [mailto:---------------------]
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 7:47 PM
To: kyle@hardocp.com
Cc: steve@hardocp.com; brent@hardocp.com
Subject: Have you considered the possibility of artificially inflating Timedemo scores?


While I believe you are entitled to your opinion regarding the 3DMark fiasco that has enveloped the industry over the past few weeks, I think you have looked past what 3DMark actually is when compared to the "real games" you espouse. 3DMark is a synthetic benchmark to be sure, but when you think about it, are not the Quake 3 Timedemos? Or any timedemos for that matter?

The cheats implemented by Nvidia in 3DMark 2003 involved an assumption regarding where the camera path would be. Thus clipping planes were put in place outside the plane of view of the camera, thus reducing workload for the card, and raising the score. Have you not considered the same can be done for a regular Timedemo? What would keep Nvidia from implementing the same strategy in Quake 3? Or Splinter Cell? Or UT2K3? Or any game that has a repeatable, "on the rails," testing demo?

Just something to think about the next time you espouse "real games" over "synthetic" worthless benchmarks. I consider something synthetic if you can't play it. You can't play Demo1 in Quake 3. You can't play 3DMark Game 1. They're the same.

I just hope you consider what this incident means for the industry as a whole. The only reason Nvidia was caught is because Extremetech and Beyond3D had access to the developer SDK and were able to take the 3DMark "games" off the rails and fly around, thus seeing the clipping planes that would artificially boost performance. Unfortunately, I don't think we have a way of testing this for regular games.

That's how I see the matter. But I guess you don't. I think that is unfortunate. Thanks for reading if you've come this far. Have a good night.

-----------------------

---------------------------------------
Infinity Interactive, Inc.
306 W. 38th Street
14th Floor, Suite #1
New York, NY 10018
http://www.iinteractive.com

V: 212.388.9100 x104
F: 212.388.0303
E: ---------------------
---------------------------------------
Notable Quotables:

"Programming today is a race between
software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs,
and the Universe trying to produce bigger
and better idiots. So far, the Universe is
winning." -- Anonymous

"Expecting the world to treat you fairly
because you are a good person is a little
like expecting the bull not to attack you
because you are a vegetarian."
-- Dennis Wholey
---------------------------------------

 

[CorwinB]

The only reason that "NVIDIA was caught" was because ATI took the information to FutureMark and they delivered it to their supposed journalists on their Beta Program as well.

Bwahahahahah !!! He really wrote that ? Now, that's a classic. Is it a duck, or just a lousy webmaster making "Quack ! Quack !" I'm hearing ? That's the pot calling the kettle quack.

I am not in the business of pushing morality and ethics on folks. I will leave that for orgainized religion.

He's right. He's in the business of making big money, not following any so-called "journalistic integrity". That's soooo old fashioned and pre-new economy ! If the making of big money means lying to his readership and pimping a specific IHV, well so be it.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Time for another movie....Very interesting read..and predictable.


http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=BA1FAC31-745C-4402-B915-C60FFB63E35C

 

[Doomtrooper]

Of course we have considered this can be done in in-game timedemos.

We can record our own demos in the games mentioned and check for such irregularities.

The only reason that "NVIDIA was caught" was because ATI took the information to FutureMark and they delivered it to their supposed journalists on their Beta Program as well.

Thanks for your points, but we can very easily test for the issues you bring up.

 

[demalion]

frgmstr on Rage3D[/url]]
06-02-2003 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Doomtrooper
Because you took a application made by Nvidia :hmm:

Then sunk your head inside your turtle shell, accused extremetech of being 'jealous' <--- now that is

With evidence out the ying yang on the most popular benchmark, don't post a damn thing for your 'fav' IHV, being not Canadian don't ya know.

I guess you got me.

We must be wrong if we idenpedently tested with applications and formed our own data and opinions. Do you every actually think about what you write here sometimes? I did not realize this was open mic nite at the Comedy Stop, but you are surely pulling every gag you have out the bag.

Encore!!! Encore!!! Oh wait, that is all you have been preaching for weeks now.

It has been fun actually repsonding to you here for a while now but you are sounding like a broken record on the wrong spead. I thought you were intelligent enough to stay on topic and to leave the recent personal attacks behind, but if that is the only way you can fortify your argument then so be it. Actually you behavior of late is sort of sad. I had really thought more of you and your character.

The other Kyle Bennet above[/url]]
Monday, June 02, 2003 10:25 PM
Of course we have considered this can be done in in-game timedemos.

We can record our own demos in the games mentioned and check for such irregularities.

The only reason that "NVIDIA was caught" was because ATI took the information to FutureMark and they delivered it to their supposed journalists on their Beta Program as well.

Thanks for your points, but we can very easily test for the issues you bring up.

Proof of hypocrisy, and demonstration of bias, in full measure.

When the IHV sending the info is nVidia, and there is proof of that, and it is Kyle doing the exposing, it is good.
When the IHV sending the info is supposedly ATI, and there is no proof of that provided, and it is not Kyle doing the exposing, it is because they are "supposed journalists" and they didn't get to bench Doom 3, despite proof to the contrary.

I don't recall ever seeing bias displayed so clearly and thoroughly before by a party that has any recognition at all in the industry and seems so exclusively focused on his own ego and wallet.

But...the cockroach has scuttled back to his site and the forums he controls exclusively, apparently, so he doesn't have to recognize any of this, of course. Strange how he always has to go when things are inconvenient, eh?

 

[Kristof]

Yes, I have and it is quite easy to do. For the Q3 engine I like to use JK2. I even use a custom map. The truth is all in the scaling of scores not neccisarily looking "off the rail".

Our mission is to be able to suggest to you the hardware that will best run the games you want. And it is that simple.

Yes, JK2 now there is a great benchmark to test DX9 level cards

The only reason that "NVIDIA was caught" was because ATI took the information to FutureMark and they delivered it to their supposed journalists on their Beta Program as well.

Does it really amtter where the info comes from, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck its probabaly... a duck, does it matter who points that out to you ?

FM and all the others came up with clear facts, who gave the initial nudge is irrelevant if there are facts to back it up.

Also recording your own timedemos does not stop companies from replacing shader code, I doubt that a game programmer is going to release a patch that re-jiggles the registers used...

 

[CorwinB]

Typical benchmarking session @[H] :
1) Fire up comp with new video card.
2) Curse because you forgot to plug a mouse
3) Refire the comp.
4) Curse again because you inverted keyboard and mouse. Shutdown, restart.
5) Get "Non system disk or disk error. Press any key to reboot."
6) Curse.
7) Look for Brent to understand what this strange message means.
8) Get a quick course on "Plugging IDE drives 101"
9) Manage to enter Windows
10) Curse because you forgot the password.
11) Remember that your password is "nvidia4ever". Launch benchmark.
12) Those damn benchmarks take forever to run, and I know them by heart. Go outside of the room for a cigarette and a coffee.
13) Chat a bit with other [R]eviewers, have a few coffees.
14) Come back half an hour later, benchmark is finished.
15) Write down score (twice as high as last time, good job on the drivers), start review.
16) "Hey, if you can't see the cheating, isn't that a valid optimization ?"

 

[John Reynolds]

Yes, JK2 now there is a great benchmark to test DX9 level cards.

That statement from Kyle alone shows his level of technical expertise when it comes to benchmarking. JK2 is a great game, but it's based on a 3.5 year old engine and is itself quite CPU bottlenecked.

Does it really amtter where the info comes from, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck its probabaly... a duck, does it matter who points that out to you ?

FM and all the others came up with clear facts, who gave the initial nudge is irrelevant if there are facts to back it up.

Also recording your own timedemos does not stop companies from replacing shader code, I doubt that a game programmer is going to release a patch that re-jiggles the registers used...

Kyle sent me an e-mail after the first ET article went up with an extremely indignant tone that ATi had 'prompted' an investigation. When I asked him how he felt about the hypocrisy of being indignant when in this situation at least 3rd party tools were used to verify the cheating as opposed to a utility written by the accused party's largest competitor, he became rather quiet on the issue and never responded to that point. I wasn't surprised. Logic? Bah!, who needs it?

 

[Clashman]

I must have missed this. In what ways did ATI "prompt" the investigation? I haven't read about this before and couldn't find any direct thread links.

 

[John Reynolds]

I must have missed this. In what ways did ATI "prompt" the investigation? I haven't read about this before and couldn't find any direct thread links.

Just something Kyle had apparently heard through the grapevine.

 

[Clashman]

Something he heard "through the grapevine" or something "nVidia told him"? And is there any truth to the statement? My guess is no, but I'd like to get some sort of 'authoritative' answer.

 

[Mariner]

Well, let's face it, if they wanted to get Kyle riled up and a-fightin' on their side, all NV would need to do would be tell him that they were the victims of an evil conspiracy led by the Canadian dark ones themselves - [spooky voice] A T I [/spooky voice].

 

[Dave Baumann]

"Supposed"?

What was the first thing we did when we saw this? Took it to NVIDIA and asked what was going on - numerous other routes I could have taken, but IMO I took the correct, responcible route. To my knowledge ET did the same.

 

[Doomtrooper]

http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=D5DB8AA1-C344-4C80-A819-F177C8D0A74D

Losing creative ideas fast

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

Despite the things Kyle says and his opinions is there any other reason you guys attack him?

 

[Doomtrooper]

Nope..and the fact he took a application made by a competing IHV and used it in the review, then backpedals like it never happened.

No ethics at all, a slimeball.

 

[Pete]

1) Natoma, I'd remove your personal info.
2) Did Kyle know you were going "public" with his comments. Sure, they don't exactly set the world on fire, but still....

As to why we dislike Kyle? He comes across as fairly reasonable in these e-mails and initially in the locked thread on the issue in the [H] forums, but then he publishes exposes and editorials and newsposts and further replies constructed on such an absurdly hypocritical basis that it's [H]ard to take him as nothing more than a tool of nVidia.

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

1) Natoma, I'd remove your personal info.
2) Did Kyle know you were going "public" with his comments. Sure, they don't exactly set the world on fire, but still....

As to why we dislike Kyle? He comes across as fairly reasonable in these e-mails and initially in the locked thread on the issue in the [H] forums, but then he publishes exposes and editorials and newsposts and further replies constructed on such an absurdly hypocritical basis that it's [H]ard to take him as nothing more than a tool of nVidia.

Is that all?

 

[digitalwanderer]

Strange thought, but it must REALLY suck to be Kyle today.

I'm not arguing or disagreeing with anything I've read about his hypocrisy, double-standards, or lack of technical knowledge...but it was pointed out to me by a mate over in a thread at R3D that it must REALLY sort of suck to have every creditable source in the community ripping on you and calling you a moron company lacky and such.

Not that he doesn't deserve it or have it coming, but it did just strike me as kind of an odd and lonely place to be and I felt a bit sorry for him...

...so I went and re-read some of his more inflamatory stuff from last night and cursed him out resoundedly on Futuremark's currently unstaffed forums (did anyone hear about all the mods walking out or is that just a rumor and it's a coincidence there ain't any around there?) and felt generally better about life.

I'm feeling bad for the guy 'cause he's right now the butt of jokes in the tech community everywhere but in his own forums, where he ain't really liked a whole lot right now either.

Just my happy "Sucks to be Kyle Bennet!" thought for the evening.

 

[Reverend]

My opinion is that FM discovered the "weirdness" themselves, did some investigations themselves, found the irregularities themselves but could not specifically confirm what the irregularities are. They sought ATIs help. ATI helped. We have the audit report with all the cheating specifics.

Remember, just my opinion.