Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

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AbsoluteBeginner said:
Please note that nothing he said can be traced or confirmed as breaking story. Therefore, I don't understand how you came to the conclusion what he wanted to say and didn't (as far as 12TF or 13TF goes).

Fact of the matter is, 3 months back he said "don't be surprised by TF number, it doesn't indicate performance as Navi yields worse TF then GCN". Now, that CANNOT be true if consoles are 12-13TF, because these numbers are completely unexpected. They outperform ANYTHING AMD has by wide, wide margin. And, thats ALOT of FLOPS.

So, he said its all based on target specs, but apparently back in August he was calling everyone to keep their expectation in check as far as TF goes. If he had target spec info, as evidently Tom and Brad had, he would have known 12TF-13TF number is far, far higher then anything people expected (especially after ~9TF Navi XT results where posted).

Second thing is, he was completely dead wrong on Lockhart being dead.

Now, he didn't leak 12TF. He said difference in TF's is One S vs One (~7%), but if we accept 12TF in Anaconda as valid, he MUST have meant PS5 is ~13TF, no way around it. Proelite pressed him on that yesterday and he backed out of Resetera after that, saying "people are putting words in his mouth", but thats exactly what his own math says.

So. What did this guy break? TFs? No. Lockhart/Anaconda? No. Console announcement? No.

He broke nothing. Now, he might be legit, might not be, but based on evidence above, why are we going on about "But Klee said..:"?

Tom, Brad - they where the first to report Anaconda, Lockhart. They where the first to report Lockhart "cancellation" and then Lockhart resurfacing. They where also first to confirm target specs (Tom on Resetera a month ago - "4TF or 12TF, which is it?" post) and say MS wants to surprise Sony (wasn't yesterday event surprise?).

They also said dev kits for Scarlett have been pretty much non existent for 3rd party. Now, who do I believe? Guys that broke codenames, specs, announcement, strat (lockhart/anaconda) or a guy on resetera who broke nothing and went away after proelite basically said "So PS5 is 13TF, Klee?"
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I understand where you're came from and yeah some of the stuffs he said earlier did sound a bit contradictory. But it seems like he knew exactly how much TF Anaconda has and even down to the decimal as in it's a little above 12 TF and yet still remains unchanged about his stance of PS5 more powerful. Maybe back then people were too over the top with 14 TF and something like 12 or 12.9 TF sounded "low" to them. I don't know man. What adds to Klee's statement is Osirisblack also backed the 13 TF rumor with his cryptic shit (13.02.20). And let's not forget Tom Warren himself posted a 12.9TF PS5 back in E3, who do we really believe now?
 
ultragpu said:
I understand where you're came from and yeah some of the stuffs he said earlier did sound a bit contradictory. But it seems like he knew exactly how much TF Anaconda has and even down to the decimal as in it's a little above 12 TF and yet still remains unchanged about his stance of PS5 more powerful. Maybe back then people were too over the top with 14 TF and something like 12 or 12.9 TF sounded "low" to them. I don't know man. What adds to Klee's statement is Osirisblack also backed the 13 TF rumor with his cryptic shit (13.02.20). And let's not forget Tom Warren himself posted a 12.9TF PS5 back in E3, who do we really believe now?
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But how did he know "exact decimal" as he only said, after the fact, "its a bit higher then 12TF".

If its 11.9TF he can say "well, they had heating issues" or whatever.

On the other hand, how come he came out in August and said people should not be looking at TF numbers because, figuratively, they will be disappointed? I mean, no one, not one single person would be disappointed by 12/13TF console. So, he either didnt know, or can say he didnt have exact numbers or whatever, but there is a reason he is very vague.

Me saying "Its 17TF" and you coming day after saying "A bit more, but yea.." does not make you credible. Anyone can say that.

Now, I have to make it clear here - he can be legit (although I seriously doubt it), but to take his word as gospel is a bit surprising to me given that all he ever did was giving vague description on next gen game (and being wrong few times).
 
AbsoluteBeginner said:
But how did he know "exact decimal" as he only said, after the fact, "its a bit higher then 12TF".

If its 11.9TF he can say "well, they had heating issues" or whatever.

On the other hand, how come he came out in August and said people should not be looking at TF numbers because, figuratively, they will be disappointed? I mean, no one, not one single person would be disappointed by 12/13TF console. So, he either didnt know, or can say he didnt have exact numbers or whatever, but there is a reason he is very vague.

Me saying "Its 17TF" and you coming day after saying "A bit more, but yea.." does not make you credible. Anyone can say that.

Now, I have to make it clear here - he can be legit (although I seriously doubt it), but to take his word as gospel is a bit surprising to me given that all he ever did was giving vague description on next gen game (and being wrong few times).
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I think most people outside of forums might think 2x XBO-X is not a great jump...this might be why Phil mentioned 8x Base and avoided the TF number.
 
goonergaz said:
Have we had the official TF number from MS yet other than this weird '~8 times the power of base one and twice the power of X' which is actually potentially nearly 3x the power of X if 12TF Navi is correct?
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"Power" is super subjective, but I'd say it's usually associated with theoretical throughput. For practical performance the common word is "faster".
 
goonergaz said:
BTW, I'm not saying Klee is the Oracle...I don't think the 12TF is right, I hope it's right but I just feel Phil would have said 'around 3 times the power of X'.
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Twice as powerfull can mean anything, he never mentioned TF did he?

AbsoluteBeginner said:
not one single person would be disappointed by 12/13TF console
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Maybe next year when that 12TF is a mid-range TF number when RTX3000 and Navi2 enter the market, some might be dissapointed. I can only imagine what AMD's gpu's are capable of in the desktop market when they can reach 12TF this easily in a console at 500 dollars.
 
ultragpu said:
I understand where you're came from and yeah some of the stuffs he said earlier did sound a bit contradictory. But it seems like he knew exactly how much TF Anaconda has and even down to the decimal as in it's a little above 12 TF and yet still remains unchanged about his stance of PS5 more powerful. Maybe back then people were too over the top with 14 TF and something like 12 or 12.9 TF sounded "low" to them. I don't know man. What adds to Klee's statement is Osirisblack also backed the 13 TF rumor with his cryptic shit (13.02.20). And let's not forget Tom Warren himself posted a 12.9TF PS5 back in E3, who do we really believe now?
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Klee said "game performance" is better in PS5.

If PS5 is 12TFlops or so with better variable rate shading/ RT...then the actual performance would be better.
 
AbsoluteBeginner said:
I am saying, how do you communicate 13TF to developers back in 2018? Like, if they said 13TF to devs in 2018, you are probably thinking "Well that means we are shooting for overclocked ~Vega64 performances!", but in reality 13TF Navi decimates Vega 64 so they would still be targeting wrong performances.

I dunno. If MS and Sony told devs in 2018 "Target specs are 12-13TF" and they deliver 9-10TF Navi, it would be good target back in 2018. If they deliver 13TF Navi, then they underestimated their performance targets. Severely.
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You simply give them raw flops. Devs don’t need exact specs 2 years before launch. Nobody is expecting devs to develop launch titles that push these new consoles to their limits. All devs need are rough estimates. They won’t really be able to push these consoles hard until they have had consoles in hand for a number of years.
 
The targets that third party studios had been working on since 2018 was 10TF+ Navi for Scarlett. It was only within the last month that MS briefed the studios on the new 12TF target. Internally the target was 12TF, and had been that since late 2018.
The reason that MS didn't share the 12TF target externally was because they weren't sure they could hit that. The Arden SOC had only recently finished OQA, where as Ariel finished OQA 6 months earlier. There was a chance that thermals/ yields looked bad for Arden and they had to keep the target at 10TF.

PS5 devkits: 40CUs at 2.0+ghz = ~10.5 TF, which was XB1S to XB1 type of difference over the old 10TF Anaconda targets.

As for Klee, he has sources and he was correct in the past, but new information comes out that can directly contradict his source. i.e. Lockhart being cancelled. His PS5 ahead of Anaconda was completely accurate at one time, but it's probably not the case anymore with 12 vs 10.5. Unless Sony sandbagged a higher performing APU for such a situation!

He also stated that both next gen consoles have VRS. Something else to keep an eye out for in the upcoming months. If PS5 lacks it then he is in real trouble on Era.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd-rdna-2-gpu-dx12-variable-rate-shading-xbox-series-x
Developers working on PlayStation 5 exclusives? Well, maybe not so much. Admittedly there’s only so much Linux and Vulkan driver dumper diving Jacob and I can do, but we’ve not been able to find anything relating to VRS support being prepped by the red team’s software developers in readiness for the AMD-powered Sony PS5.

There’s Vulkan support for Nvidia’s implementations of Variable Rate Shading, but that’s not a lot of help when there’s only Radeon tech humming away under the hood of the new PlayStation. So, despite the essential hardware so far looking more or less identical there might still be a point of differentiation between them thanks to Microsoft’s own API work.
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^^^ Not sure if searching in Vulkan and Linux driver reveals anything, as PS5 likely uses GNM.

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2019/12/12/microsoft-unveils-xbox-series-x/
Additionally, our patented Variable Rate Shading (VRS) technology will allow developers to get even more out of the Xbox Series X GPU and our next-generation SSD will virtually eliminate load times and bring players into their gaming worlds faster than ever before.
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12.9Tf ? Surely they can eke out another 100Gf to round that up? :???:

#PS5FAIL
 
iroboto said:
1 incomplete game that he knows of is better.
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Where did he say that ?
Proelite said:
The targets that third party studios had been working on since 2018 was 10TF+ Navi for Scarlett. It was only within the last month that MS briefed the studios on the new 12TF target. Internally the target was 12TF, and had been that since late 2018.
The reason that MS didn't share the 12TF target externally was because they weren't sure they could hit that. The Arden SOC had only recently being finished OQA, where as Ariel finished OQA 6 months earlier. There was a chance that thermals/ yields looked bad for Arden and they had to keep the target at 10TF.

PS5 devkits: 40CUs at 2.0+ghz = ~10.5 TF, which was XB1S to XB1 type of difference over the old 10TF Anaconda targets.

As for Klee, he has sources and he was correct in the past, but new information comes out that can directly contradict his source. i.e. Lockhart being cancelled. His PS5 ahead of Anaconda was completely accurate at one time, but it's probably not the case anymore with 12 vs 10.5. Unless Sony sandbagged a higher performing APU for such a situation!

He also stated that both next gen consoles have VRS. Something else to keep an eye out for in the upcoming months. If PS5 lacks it then he is in real trouble on Era.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd-rdna-2-gpu-dx12-variable-rate-shading-xbox-series-x


^^^ Not sure if searching in Vulkan and Linux driver reveals anything, as PS5 likely uses GNM.

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2019/12/12/microsoft-unveils-xbox-series-x/
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Patented VRS sounds like software support, similar to DXR to me, it doesn't tell anything about how it's going to be implemented in the hardware (yes even if both manufacturers said "hardware accelerated", it means nothing, everything is "hardware accelerated" in the end).

We have to wait the release of those consoles to know how the software APIs are going to be implemented in the hardware. Those kind of stuff, like DXR will be taken care by Sony's GNM APIs anyways which will be heavily NDAed like on PS4 so they won't use that in their PR to brag.

BTW Klee recently confirmed 12tf RDNA for Scarlett and said what he said about PS5 having a slight edge didn't change at all.
 
Proelite said:
The targets that third party studios had been working on since 2018 was 10TF+ Navi for Scarlett. It was only within the last month that MS briefed the studios on the new 12TF target. Internally the target was 12TF, and had been that since late 2018.
The reason that MS didn't share the 12TF target externally was because they weren't sure they could hit that. The Arden SOC had only recently being finished OQA, where as Ariel finished OQA 6 months earlier. There was a chance that thermals/ yields looked bad for Arden and they had to keep the target at 10TF.

PS5 devkits: 40CUs at 2.0+ghz = ~10.5 TF, which was XB1S to XB1 type of difference over the old 10TF Anaconda targets.

As for Klee, he has sources and he was correct in the past, but new information comes out that can directly contradict his source. i.e. Lockhart being cancelled. His PS5 ahead of Anaconda was completely accurate at one time, but it's probably not the case anymore with 12 vs 10.5. Unless Sony sandbagged a higher performing APU for such a situation!

He also stated that both next gen consoles have VRS. Something else to keep an eye out for in the upcoming months. If PS5 lacks it then he is in real trouble on Era.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd-rdna-2-gpu-dx12-variable-rate-shading-xbox-series-x


^^^ Not sure if searching in Vulkan and Linux driver reveals anything, as PS5 likely uses GNM.

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2019/12/12/microsoft-unveils-xbox-series-x/
Click to expand...

is this fact or guesswork?
 
goonergaz said:
is this fact or guesswork?
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He was right before 12tf reveal it seems, trust him more then ’ex-journalists’. MS has the more powerfull console. At ~10tf ps5 plays in stadia/5700 area. Xbox ~12tf with vrs and pc size allows for higher cpu clocks too (3.5ghz). PS5 maybe ~ 3ghz?

The one x was a sign of ms playing in another leage vs ps4 pro. VRS could give that 12tf another boost over ps5 10tf, which probably runs hotter and louder with its 2ghz gpu in a smaller case. MS also has a nice software studios for coming gen. Well done.

Also, ms seems to have more experience on the software side of RT, maybe even hardware too....
 
Globalisateur said:
Patented VRS sounds like software support...
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You'd think so, but here's the patent...

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20180047203A1/en

Then of course, AMD has its own. : http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2019/0066371.html

I think it very unlikely either console company will have a significant technological advantage from their own IPs though. Worst case, MS sues Sony for using an AMD tech that MS's patent predates, ask for all PS5 to be stopped and burned and everyone who ever had one to be shot, and then the courts settle on a few millions licensing fees and the lawyers get a new yacht to add to their collection. The most outlandish possibility presenting itself to date is Sony having some different RT solution based on their patents rather than just what AMD cooked up.
 
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