Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition announced. The atemporal classic masterpiece is back.

[Silent_Buddha]

In 2.0 and before...most especially in AD&D, mages became hugely powerful once you got to higher levels. Even at low levels their spells did more damage than non-magical weapons. But it wasn't "that" much more at lower levels.

So depending on your GM, if he ran a proper campaign where magic items (weapons, armor, and potions) were somewhat rare rewards then a wizard's limited spell repetoire at low levels wasn't a problem. Sure a fighter could keep swinging all day, but if he runs out of HP he's going to go splat fast. And if healing potions aren't dropping like candy then you're going to be limited to 2-3 fights at most in any given game day.

Which is fine in a PnP RPG where storytelling and roleplaying can often times take up the majority of a gaming session.

Where things fall apart is if you have a Hack and Slash GM and magic items are common right from the start. Or in computer games where healing potions drop like candy.

D&D was at the start high fantasy with a nod towards realism. In other words, you weren't expecting to jump into a fight every 5-10 minutes.

But that high fantasy also went way out of whack at the higher levels. Fighters became just meat shields, while the magic users dished out all the damage. A puny +5 longsword is only going to do 1d8+5 damage. At higher levels in AD&D, a fighter would eventually have 2 attacks per round. So the potential to do 2d8+10 (12-26 damage + str mods) to one target. Compared to a Magic User who is potentially lobbing fireballs for 10d6 (10-60).to everything within its area of effect.

D&D 2.0 tried to make melee more on par with Magic Users, but they were still incredibly underpowered compared to Magic Users at higher levels. D&D 3.0 and 3.5 is where the balance shifted with melee fighters suddenly doing similar damage to a Caster at higher levels, only without the spell restrictions. More attacks at higher levels. Higher strength damage mods without resorting to magic items. Extensive melee feats, etc...

Regards,
SB

 

[AlphaWolf]

Even at low levels their spells did more damage than non-magical weapons. But it wasn't "that" much more at lower levels.

Uh... no. Unless by low levels you mean 10.

 

[Gubbi]

I've played plenty of PC games, TYVM Including Baldur's Gate and NWN. It was around 3D and PS2 that I turned to the Dark Side. As an interseting note a friend and I were both playing Baldur's Gate when another friends got his PS2, and that's why he bought Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance as his first game. I found the direct control of BGDA much more entertaining than the point-and-click of PC games. Yeah, I know. Short attention span and shallowness are the hallmarks of the console gamer.

BGDA had nothing to do with Baldur's Gate 1&2 other having Baldur's Gate in the name. It's not even a role playing game, but a hack and slash adventure. It's a complete abomination.

The ridiculous limitation of magic in DnD, with the limited spell numbers, and weapon and armour options, made a mage a complete sissy early on. Seriously, you'd have to go to sleep for 8 hours to regenerate your two or three spells, then go into combat with zero armour and puny weapons hoping your spells would hit, but when they did they did less damage than a decent sword and there's always a chance they'd fail and you'd do zero damage. If the magic was potent early on then the other limitations would be balanced, but instead the magic users were at a disadvantage in every single way.

Magic missile always hits, Melf's acid arrow is good early on. Armor or shield+blur+mirror image means you are very hard to hit, so even though you'll have to use a sling to pebble them to death, you should have the time to do so. At level 5 you get 3rd level spells: Fireball, Skulltrap (better than fireball) and Melf's minute meteor. At level 7 you get stoneskin at which point you own warriors, at level 10 only other magic casters can kill you.

Yes, you have to rest to regain spells, but warriors are dependent on healers who also have to rest.

Going solo is a challenge early on, but you don't play solo in either BG 1 or 2: Imoen, Montaron, Xzar, Jaheira (and her whining husband) in BG 1, and Jaheira, Imoen and Minsc in BG 2. You always have a healer and a tank from the get go.

Mage, and various multi/dual class derivatives isn't my first choice of character in BG 1, but it is in BG 2.

Cheers

 

[Shifty Geezer]

In 2.0 and before...most especially in AD&D, mages became hugely powerful once you got to higher levels. Even at low levels their spells did more damage than non-magical weapons. But it wasn't "that" much more at lower levels.

Let's avoid discussiing PnP DnD rules if they don't translate directly to the games. My experience of DnD based computer games (and numerous derivatives apparently influences by DnD) is that the mages are gimped. This goes especially for NWN. I guess it was so for BG too, but honestly can't remember. Which is a shame as I love the Forgotten Realms universe and the potential there, but I'm not seeing good games based on that IP these days. Mostly thanks to Atari controlling gaming rights and being a bit crap. The recreation of a classic is definitely Good News, and I hope it regenerates some more interest. A proper next-gen BG Dark Alliance game would have been awesome, and run on a console to boot.

 

[Gubbi]

Let's avoid discussiing PnP DnD rules if they don't translate directly to the games. My experience of DnD based computer games (and numerous derivatives apparently influences by DnD) is that the mages are gimped. This goes especially for NWN. I guess it was so for BG too, but honestly can't remember. Which is a shame as I love the Forgotten Realms universe and the potential there, but I'm not seeing good games based on that IP these days. Mostly thanks to Atari controlling gaming rights and being a bit crap. The recreation of a classic is definitely Good News, and I hope it regenerates some more interest. A proper next-gen BG Dark Alliance game would have been awesome, and run on a console to boot.

I'm describing the spells and spell progression as they appear in the games Baldur's Gate 1 & 2.

BG 2 was all about magic.

NWN had nothing to do with BG (other than being from the same developers). IMO, It was broken in every way.

Cheers

 

[Shifty Geezer]

BGDA had nothing to do with Baldur's Gate 1&2 other having Baldur's Gate in the name.

I know, but that's why he bought it.

It's not even a role playing game, but a hack and slash adventure. It's a complete abomination.

It's bloody brilliant is what it is! Fabulous coop fun. Sure, anyone buying it wanting a Baldur's Gate RPG experience will be disappointed, but people just wanting a game mostly found great entertainiment in it.

Magic missile always hits

Which is fine as long as you are only being attacked by 2 Kobolds. But if three or more appear, you run out of spells and have to resort to your knife. In the opening of NWN, just leaving the ruins, I'd have to sleep for 8 hours multiple times to get through the initial hall, IIRC!

Mage, and various multi/dual class derivatives isn't my first choice of character in BG 1, but it is in BG 2.

Mage tends to be my prefered class in games (when not heavily limited), on account of being more varied than brain-dead fighters, so a party based mechanic where you can be a mage and be properly supported is very welcomed by me.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm describing the spells and spell progression as they appear in the games Baldur's Gate 1 & 2.

That reply was to Silent-Buddha. You posted while I was replying.

NWN had nothing to do with BG (other than being from the same developers).

It's the same DnD ruleset though, isn't it?

 

[Gubbi]

It's the same DnD ruleset though, isn't it?

Don't think so. Melee charactes get many more attacks in NWN at higher level (with lower and lower chance to hit).

Cheers

 

[Silent_Buddha]

NWN was D&D "2.5".

Basically it was D&D 2.0 with some features from 3.0 added into it. D&D 3.0 hadn't finished in time for them to build NWN around it.

So one of the things it got was beefed up melee classes, while the magic classes didn't get much. Feats made it in as well. Which generally benefitted melee classes more than caster classes.

And for the solo-centric NWN, magic users were gimped while melee wasn't. In other words, the ease that you could get healing potions completely removed the in built in mechanic to limit combat per day for melee. While they did nothing to ameliorate the in built mechanic for spell casters to limit combat per day.

And Shifty, I went into the PnP aspect because they were trying to emulate PnP. In Baldur's Gate they did a fairly good job of it. That's because Dr. Ray Muzyka and Dr. Greg Zeschuk were avid PnP gamers and wanted to recreate the PnP experience on PC.

They were more hands off with NWN with it's more action oriented focus. Moving away from desktop PnP in the process. Hence, there's a lot less people clammoring for a NWN remake, and less people with fond memories of it. And don't even get me started on NWN2.

Anyway, that whole thing was trying to showcase why some games based on DnD work well (Baldur's Gate) with regards to class roles and balance, while others (NWN) don't do as well. And hence we see melee take a much stronger role than it traditionally did in D&D up until that point.

Regards,
SB

 

[Ninjaprime]

NWN was D&D "2.5".

Basically it was D&D 2.0 with some features from 3.0 added into it. D&D 3.0 hadn't finished in time for them to build NWN around it.

So one of the things it got was beefed up melee classes, while the magic classes didn't get much. Feats made it in as well. Which generally benefitted melee classes more than caster classes.

And for the solo-centric NWN, magic users were gimped while melee wasn't. In other words, the ease that you could get healing potions completely removed the in built in mechanic to limit combat per day for melee. While they did nothing to ameliorate the in built mechanic for spell casters to limit combat per day.

And Shifty, I went into the PnP aspect because they were trying to emulate PnP. In Baldur's Gate they did a fairly good job of it. That's because Dr. Ray Muzyka and Dr. Greg Zeschuk were avid PnP gamers and wanted to recreate the PnP experience on PC.

They were more hands off with NWN with it's more action oriented focus. Moving away from desktop PnP in the process. Hence, there's a lot less people clammoring for a NWN remake, and less people with fond memories of it. And don't even get me started on NWN2.

Anyway, that whole thing was trying to showcase why some games based on DnD work well (Baldur's Gate) with regards to class roles and balance, while others (NWN) don't do as well. And hence we see melee take a much stronger role than it traditionally did in D&D up until that point.

Regards,
SB

No, NWN was completely D&D 3.0, that was one of their bragging points wasn't it? Wasn't it the first game to feature 3.0?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

No, NWN was completely D&D 3.0, that was one of their bragging points wasn't it? Wasn't it the first game to feature 3.0?

Hmmm, you know you could be right. BG 2 is probably the one I'm thinking of as 2.5.

Regards,
SB

 

[Ninjaprime]

Hmmm, you know you could be right. BG 2 is probably the one I'm thinking of as 2.5.

Regards,
SB

Yeah BG started out 2E and slowly added some 3E-esque features, IIRC Throne of Bhaal added sorcerers and some other 3E features, so its was probably what you would call 2.5E.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

NWN was D&D "2.5".

Ahhh, okay. I was ignorant. NWN wasn't same ruleset as BG, so the balancing was different. Perhaps the odler ruleset (2E or 2.5 or whatever BG was) had magic too strong and in typical balancing style, attempting to address this overpowered the melee classes in NWN's 2.5E/3.0/whatever ruleset.

I don't quite get the NWN hate. It was an entertaining game and the editor made for some excellent user-generated content. But from the sounds of it I might need to pick up this remake.

 

[Kyyla]

This and Brian Fargo making Wasteland 2. Very nice.

 

[liolio]

I didn't played nwn as much as bg2 but I don't remember wizards or sorcerers being gimped. There were means to build awesome battle mage. There was also the cheesy sorceress/ 1 lvl paladin/ one level monk that have awesome potential. Still you need to rest ( not that much for the battle mage in fact).
In nwn mages were still missing the fire power they had in BG2. Overall I believe that my favorite set of rules was icewind dale 2 (2.5 I believe). More flexible multiclassing than in Bg, more skills, better balance between priests and mages.
Edit in fact iwd2 is an incomplete d&d3 implementation, still my favorite one.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Ahhh, okay. I was ignorant. NWN wasn't same ruleset as BG, so the balancing was different. Perhaps the odler ruleset (2E or 2.5 or whatever BG was) had magic too strong and in typical balancing style, attempting to address this overpowered the melee classes in NWN's 2.5E/3.0/whatever ruleset.

I don't quite get the NWN hate. It was an entertaining game and the editor made for some excellent user-generated content. But from the sounds of it I might need to pick up this remake.

Nod, and it wasn't so much overpowered in 2.0 or "2.5". But those games were much more party focused. Hence you had your "tank" which was the fighter. You had your healer which was the cleric. And you had your Wizard which was your long range artillery...once he got to level 5. And the poor rogue was mostly for opening chests, disarming traps, etc.

AD&D and D&D 2.0 had fighters much more focused on tanking as their primary role. Damage dealing was an afterthought. Hence they leveled up faster than wizards or monks who were your primary damage dealers once they got to higher levels. Rogues had the fastest leveling curve due to them being mostly utility with limited damage dealing ability (backstabs limited to +1d6 instead of +1d6 per 2 levels in 3.0, IIRC)

D&D 3.0 attempted to make all classes equally relevant when it came to damage dealing at all levels.

NWN making healing potions extremely easy to get just shifted the balance even more towards the melee classes. If there had been potions to restore spells castable in a day, that would have been the equivalent for the casting classes, but there was no such thing.

I didn't played nwn as much as bg2 but I don't remember wizards or sorcerers being gimped. There were means to build awesome battle mage. There was also the cheesy sorceress/ 1 lvl palladin/ one level monk that hax awesome potential. Still you need to rest ( not that much cor the battle mage in fact).
In nwn mages were still missing the fire power they had in BG2. Overall I believe.that my favorite set of rules was icewind dale 2 (2.5 I believe). More flexible multitasking than in Bg, more skills, better balance between priests and mages.
Edit in fact iwd2 is an incomplete d&d3 implementation, still my favortie one.

Not so much gimped in NWN. They were still more powerful than their D&D 2.0 versions, but they didn't advance in power nearly as much as the melee classes.

As well due to the prevalence of healing potions, the melee classes weren't as reliant on having to rest periodically to regain full combat ability. Hence making melee classes more powerful in NWN.

That wasn't as much of a problem in BG, as eventually the whole party had to rest as your healers were also limited in spells cast per day.

Regards,
SB

 

[Richard]

First things first. NWN was the second D&D 3.0 game (first one was Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor, the game that ate your C drive in certain situations). Despite being released roughly 2 years after the D&D 3.0's Player's Handbook it has the worst translations to video game of those rules. A single example to illustrate:

One of the big shifts in D&D3 was "consequences not restrictions", for instance, wizards could now wear all kinds of armour, they would simply have a spellcasting failure roll. NWN's D&D ruleset went back to AD&D and prohibited mages from wearing any armour. And don't get me started on the feats.

NWN was an abomination to the ruleset, the singleplayer campaigns of BG/IWD/PST, and more generally to the RPG genre. NWN coop was great yes, but didn't come close to IWD coop. Worst 50 euros I've ever spent on a game. EVER.

As for Mages being gimped in NWN, yes they were exactly because it didn't follow the ruleset. I started playing it as a Paladin (as I always do every RPG) and at around level 5 had to restart as a wizard just so I didn't die of boredom.

Now, these BG EE games. First, they're still using AD&D which to me is a necessary evil. Changing the ruleset would require a lot of game changes, engine reworkings, etc. Worst of all, WotC would probably force them to use D&D 4.0 which killed the desire to play PnP from every single PnP player I personally know. In a perfect world, BG EE would use Pathfinder which is the spiritual successor to D&D 3.5.

This world isn't just imperfect, it's also fairly broken because being Beamdog exclusive means I won't get them. Line in the sand, I just drew one. Right now I have the following [strike]DRM[/strike] laucher/store installed:

Steam
Origin (for BF3)
G4WL
Uplay (for AC2)

No more. BG EE ought to be on GoG (every game should be on GoG) or an existing store.

 

[3dcgi]

That Pool of Radiance game was the only game I've ever bought that I truly regretted. I didn't play long at all before I gave up and uninstalled it.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I'd completely forgotten about the Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor. Not because I didn't buy it, I did. But because it was so bad I wiped the memory of it from my mind. Thanks for reminding me.

Regards,
SB

 

[Cyan]

NWN was D&D "2.5".

Basically it was D&D 2.0 with some features from 3.0 added into it. D&D 3.0 hadn't finished in time for them to build NWN around it.

So one of the things it got was beefed up melee classes, while the magic classes didn't get much. Feats made it in as well. Which generally benefitted melee classes more than caster classes.

And for the solo-centric NWN, magic users were gimped while melee wasn't. In other words, the ease that you could get healing potions completely removed the in built in mechanic to limit combat per day for melee. While they did nothing to ameliorate the in built mechanic for spell casters to limit combat per day.

And Shifty, I went into the PnP aspect because they were trying to emulate PnP. In Baldur's Gate they did a fairly good job of it. That's because Dr. Ray Muzyka and Dr. Greg Zeschuk were avid PnP gamers and wanted to recreate the PnP experience on PC.

They were more hands off with NWN with it's more action oriented focus. Moving away from desktop PnP in the process. Hence, there's a lot less people clammoring for a NWN remake, and less people with fond memories of it. And don't even get me started on NWN2.

Anyway, that whole thing was trying to showcase why some games based on DnD work well (Baldur's Gate) with regards to class roles and balance, while others (NWN) don't do as well. And hence we see melee take a much stronger role than it traditionally did in D&D up until that point.

Regards,
SB

Back then I was so tempted to buy Neverwinter Nights, and then Neverwinter Nights 2, but reading people's opinions on it -and some other games- I am glad I didn't. Icewind Dale was also a game I've never played that I was interested in, but I left PC gaming in 2004, except for the odd emulator or to play some Baldur's Gate 2 or the original Vampire: The Masquerade Redemption, although pretty much like Shifty I only have one of the original CDs of V:TMR.., so I re-purchased the game from http://www.gog.com/ months ago.

I didn't miss much NWN, and also I spent my time playing RPG masterpieces like Planescape Torment, Arcanum of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, V:TMR, and even Diablo 2.

Planescape Torment had an amazing story, lots of choices, flexibility to approach situations and quests, memorable characters...

Arcanum is the quintessence of role-playing in many ways, probably the most open ended game ever created.

It was amazing how every time-through could change so much. How there was more than one solution to things.

Then you had lots of background to choose from, more than 60. Some were hilarious, :smile: like the Frankestein one, the Super Model, the Bookworm, the arsonist, etc etc. But they influenced the game.

I don't know any RPG where things like Beauty were taking into account, it was unique.

Or how some of your backgrounds meant your character wasn't able to talk, or talked like a 5 years old.

Quite unique as I said, and some of the "dumb" dialogues were so funny they had me wiping when I tried one of those characters.

Arcanum, in my humble opinion, is the pinnacle of the RPG genre in many regards. :smile:

Vampire the Masquerade Redemption falls a bit short as a RPG in comparison -although you could be GM in the online, or use your imagination following the rules the GM created while playing with other players...it was very entertaining, and time flied).

The best thing about that game was the love story... It certainly made a deep impression in me, because I thought love worked like that and identified with it.

I was in my early twenties when I played it -the release date was autumn 2000, at least where I live- and well, I was like a sponge.

Diablo 2, on the other hand, if you count choosing stats as playing an RPG, then it was an RPG, but apart from letting you choose the name of your character and the stats thing there isn't anything in it like the other games I mentioned.

You were just a do-gooder. Nothing more, nothing less. Typical story, but even so I played it a lot of hours because of the different builds, and of course the Magic Find thing to get the unique and set items.

A great hack'n slash with some very interesting characters like Deckard Cain and setting.

First things first. NWN was the second D&D 3.0 game (first one was Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor, the game that ate your C drive in certain situations). Despite being released roughly 2 years after the D&D 3.0's Player's Handbook it has the worst translations to video game of those rules. A single example to illustrate:

One of the big shifts in D&D3 was "consequences not restrictions", for instance, wizards could now wear all kinds of armour, they would simply have a spellcasting failure roll. NWN's D&D ruleset went back to AD&D and prohibited mages from wearing any armour. And don't get me started on the feats.

NWN was an abomination to the ruleset, the singleplayer campaigns of BG/IWD/PST, and more generally to the RPG genre. NWN coop was great yes, but didn't come close to IWD coop. Worst 50 euros I've ever spent on a game. EVER.

As for Mages being gimped in NWN, yes they were exactly because it didn't follow the ruleset. I started playing it as a Paladin (as I always do every RPG) and at around level 5 had to restart as a wizard just so I didn't die of boredom.

Now, these BG EE games. First, they're still using AD&D which to me is a necessary evil. Changing the ruleset would require a lot of game changes, engine reworkings, etc. Worst of all, WotC would probably force them to use D&D 4.0 which killed the desire to play PnP from every single PnP player I personally know. In a perfect world, BG EE would use Pathfinder which is the spiritual successor to D&D 3.5.

This world isn't just imperfect, it's also fairly broken because being Beamdog exclusive means I won't get them. Line in the sand, I just drew one. Right now I have the following [strike]DRM[/strike] laucher/store installed:

Steam
Origin (for BF3)
G4WL
Uplay (for AC2)

No more. BG EE ought to be on GoG (every game should be on GoG) or an existing store.

That's one of the things I find off-putting about PC gaming these days. I don't have much problem with drivers and stuff, yes, they can be painful, but then I like to mess around with them, and it's one of the things I like about PC gaming, except it becomes a game breaking experience.

I find Steam, as far as I know (don't have it installed) a bit intrusive in the way it forces you to be online to play single player games like Skyrim, for instance. Sometimes your router can stop working, other times you can lose the signal if you are too far away. Things like that.