Attempt to override the constitutional amendment process

[digitalwanderer]

Most would say that God is ruler, and settles differences (judges), and is not controlling.

No Joe, some might say that...but I feel they'd be wrong. It's an opinion, not a fact.

I don't recall the bible ever asserting that God controls our will. Some would say that government is controlling and limiting freedom. No difference.

Uhm, are you saying the bible doesn't tell you things you can and can't do? I ain't no biblical scholar, but that don't sound right to me. :|

They were both inspired by "something greater than man".

Nope, that's an opinion and not a fact Joe.

Not according to the Declaration of Independence, Digi.

Mebbe, but we ain't talking about the DoI here are we?

You've got it all wrong.

You can only govern based on a moral code of right and wrong. The constitution does not govern, Digi. The constitution lays the foundation for laws to be written in order to govern. The constitution defines "right and wrong", while federal, state, and local laws, within the confines of right and wrong defined by the Constitution, define how we are governed.

The bible tells us "right and wrong", just as the constitution does. And each "chuch" has it's own "laws" based on their own interpretation of the bible that "governs" that particular church. Just as each state has it's own set of laws, that governs that particular state.

The Constitution defines the basis for what is legal and not-legal, or what the judicial system shall make legal/illegal....that isn't the same as saying something is morally right/wrong.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

No Joe, some might say that...but I feel they'd be wrong. It's an opinion, not a fact.

Did I say it was fact?

It's an opinion just as there are lots of differing opinions on what the constitution "is" and "should be", as I've said. That's my point.

Uhm, are you saying the bible doesn't tell you things you can and can't do? I ain't no biblical scholar, but that don't sound right to me. :|

Uhm, I'm saying that the bible is no more "controlling" (as you claimed) than the constitution is. They BOTH tell you "right from wrong", but neither one of them actually prevents you from doing wrong, or controls you.

One is no more "contolling" than the other.

Mebbe, but we ain't talking about the DoI here are we?

You can't separate the two. The DoI explains why we separated from one "tyrranical government". That one particular oppressive "government by man" did not recognize the "self-evident truths" as given to us by our creator.

The "Constitution" tries to pen (ironically), what exactly and specifically these "self evident" truths are.

The Constitution defines the basis for what is legal and not-legal, or what the judicial system shall make legal/illegal....that isn't the same as saying something is morally right/wrong.

No, you are wrong.

The constitution defines what it morally right and wrong for the government to do, based on the "self-evident truths" and rights of individuals.

LEGISLATED LAWS (federal, state and local) are basis for what is legal and illegal.

 

[Natoma]

He's def not a fringe scholar and from what Ive read in BR (sister mag of BAR) the scholarly consensus is both that the word means kill and not murder and the soddom and gomorrah story inferes rape and not homosexuality per se.

Its not unusual to see a word translated into other meanings elsewhere. 'Hell' for example in most english bibles is translated from up to 4 different words most of them referring to the grave. So refering from another passage the same term doesnt mean it means something else. The hebrew word for murder (I wish I knew it right now I read that article a few years ago) is very specific but its not the same as the word for kill.

Most english bibles are badly translated but the most literal ones say its thou shalt not kill...


Personally I read the bible in french a few times and only once in english and was amazed at how different the english ver was (NKJ)... Its much more frightening to see hell everywhere in the english ver...

My standards on moral and other interpretations are indeed personal but pretty well grounded in what Ive read and been taught over the years by some religious and secular groups. I think you'd be at pains to shows me morally conflicted in regards to moral and biblical teachings...

Good summation of what I've been saying for the past two or three pages.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Whatever Joe, arguing politics/religion with you makes my brain hurt and is just too hard....you're a damned opinioned cuss who is just too stubborn to see anything but their own view on the matter. (And I'm respectful as hell of that fact, it's a plus in my book. )

You raise good points Joe, but I still feel there are just basic and intrinsic differences which make comparing the bible to the Constitution impossible...they are two different types of documents meant for two different things. One is for the real world, one is for the fairy-tale world of yesteryear...I happen to put a whole lot more faith in one than the other.

My opinion is that religion is a terrible evil that we should all put behind us, grow up, and just admit there are questions we don't have the answers to yet.

I know not knowing can be scary, but facing reality is always better than ducking your head in the sand and pretending you have all the answers.

I mean no insult to anyone personally, just to their beliefs and religions in general. The way the current party in the White House is trying to indoctrinate our country into a christian state is just annoying and pissing me the hell off, it is NOT what our country is about!

 

[RussSchultz]

I mean no insult to anyone personally, just to their beliefs and religions in general.

How can you not insult somebody when you insult their beliefs and religion?!

*boggle*

 

[John Reynolds]

How can you not insult somebody when you insult their beliefs and religion?!

*boggle*

How can you not hate someone when you hate their beliefs and religion? Ask Joe about the Jews sometime.

 

[digitalwanderer]

I mean no insult to anyone personally, just to their beliefs and religions in general.

How can you not insult somebody when you insult their beliefs and religion?!

*boggle*

Easy! I just hate the sin and not the sinner.

BTW-How do you feel about the Jews Joe? :|

 

[Joe DeFuria]

One is for the real world, one is for the fairy-tale world of yesteryear...I happen to put a whole lot more faith in one than the other.

As I said...the state of the world, and the U.S. in particular, 200 years ago is about as "fairy-tale" as you can get when related to the reality of today.

My opinion is that religion is a terrible evil that we should all put behind us, grow up, and just admit there are questions we don't have the answers to yet.

I guess it's news to you that my "terrible evil, fairy-tale" Christian religion also admits there are questions we don't have answers to yet?

I mean no insult to anyone personally, just to their beliefs and religions in general.

Um...yeah.

I mean no personal insult to you, but really, anyone who can just look at the "engineering" of the Human Body, our consciousness itself, and believe it's just a chance occurance of molecules thrown together, is just loony.

it is The way the current party in the White House is trying to indoctrinate our country into a christian state is just annoying and pissing me the hell off, it is NOT what our country is about!

You and John should start your own thread about this. I'm sure you can console yoursleves for 20 or so pages while fearing the Next bush doctrine: "A Bible in every Crib"

 

[Joe DeFuria]

How can you not hate someone when you hate their beliefs and religion? Ask Joe about the Jews sometime.

BTW-How do you feel about the Jews Joe? :|

What do you mean how do I feel about them?

I don't agree with their religious beliefs, but I still respect those beliefs.

There's a difference between lack of respect, and "hatred". I consider displaying an outright lack of respect for one's beliefs an insult. I'm not accusing you or anyone else of "hatred".

 

[Vince]

They were both inspired by "something greater than man".

Nope, that's an opinion and not a fact Joe.

I'm guessing you've never actually read the works and letters by the Founding Fathers? I mean, to argue from your position stated above you couldn't have. Then again, what did you expect from a country founded by men who were escaping persecution, namely religious persecution?

John Addams. Second Formal President of the United States, eminent American Political Philosopher and Revolutionary.

• The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.

  
  

  Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

  
  

  Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men… The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart

Benjamin Franklin. American Statesman, Philosopher, Founder of the United States, Musician, Economist and famous Inventor.

• I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God governs in the affairs of men... If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground unseen by him, is it probable an empire could arise without his aid? I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building not better than the builders of Babel.

Alexander Hamilton. First Secretary of the Treasury. Signer of the Constitution and driving force behind it's ratification. Authored many of the Fedealist Papers, leader of the Fedearlist party and fierce Patriot

• In my opinion, the present consitution is the standard to which we are to cling. Under its banner bona fide must we combat our political foes, rejecting all changes but through the channel itself provided for amendments. By these general views of the subject have my reflections been guided. I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated "The Christian Constitutional Society," its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. second: The support of the United States.

Samuel Adams. American Revolutionary, Founding Father, Signer of the Decleration of Independence, Politician, and Patriot. Cousin to John Adams.

• titled "The Rights of the Colonists"

  II. The Rights of the Colonists as Christians.
  
  The right to freedom being the gift of the Almighty...The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutions of The Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.[/quote]
  
  

  Principally, and first of all, I resign my soul to the Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying on the merits of Jesus Christ for the pardon of my sins.

John Jay. First Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, Delegate & elected President of Continental Congress.

• I have long been of opinion that the evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds. . . .

  
  

  While in France . . . I do not recollect to have had more than two conversations with atheists about their tenents. The first was this: I was at a large party, of which were several of that description. They spoke freely and contemptuously of religion. I took no part in the conversation. In the course of it, one of them asked me if I believed in Christ? I answered that I did, and that I thanked God that I did.

Thomas Jefferson. Third Formal President of the United States. Writer of the Decleration of Independence. American Politician and strong patriot.

• I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.

He compiled the The Jefferson Bible: The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted Textually from the Gospels. which is the bible verse minus any supernatural occurances.

George Washington. First Formal President of the United States. Commander of the Continental Army, delegate to Second Continental Congress. American Politician and patriot.

• You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention.

  
  You can also look to Washington's 20-odd page manuscript entitled the Daily Sacrifice which he handwrote around the age of twenty in which he makes many references to prayer, his belief in Christianity and how Jesus's sacrifices for him helped him through his life to that point. Thomas Jefferson and his daughter Nelly Custis-Lewis both have remarked about his devout inner belief in Christianity.

 

[digitalwanderer]

One is for the real world, one is for the fairy-tale world of yesteryear...I happen to put a whole lot more faith in one than the other.

As I said...the state of the world, and the U.S. in particular, 200 years ago is about as "fairy-tale" as you can get when related to the reality of today.

Thus the "living document" aspect of the Constitution.

My opinion is that religion is a terrible evil that we should all put behind us, grow up, and just admit there are questions we don't have the answers to yet.

I guess it's news to you that my "terrible evil, fairy-tale" Christian religion also admits there are questions we don't have answers to yet?

Yes it is, but it doesn't really matter. Your terribly evil fairy-tale religion still just screws up so much on the big questions that the details are irrelavent.

I mean no personal insult to you, but really, anyone who can just look at the "engineering" of the Human Body, our consciousness itself, and believe it's just a chance occurance of molecules thrown together, is just loony.

Uhm, I'm about to vent a bit...but it's just a knee-jerk reaction to a typical and stereotyping attitude that I hate and loathe that causes it, please don't think it's entirely directed at you.

BACK THE FUCK OFF!!!

What makes you so damned sure you have the slightest clue about what my personal beliefs/philosophy is? You hear me say I think religion is bullshit so suddenly I'm a heathen atheist who doesn't believe in shit?

Grow up!

I happen to be an extremely spiritual person who just happens to feel that none of the religions out there are even close to the truth, that doesn't mean I don't think there is a God or Gods! Far from it, it gives me the freedom to contemplate more and diverse options about our Creator/s and how it all fits together.

I HATE it when people think I'm an atheist because I despise religion! I wouldn't despise religion so much if I was an atheist, I simply wouldn't care. Religion interferes with peoples search for the truth and enlightenment, and I really truly believe that.

 

[digitalwanderer]

All that stuff Vince wrote about the founding father's mistaken beliefs.

You know what Vince? They were all wrong too.

 

[John Reynolds]

Heh, and the phrase the separation of church and state does not exist in any official government document penned by the Founding Fathers.

 

[Vince]

All that stuff Vince wrote about the founding father's mistaken beliefs.

You know what Vince? They were all wrong too.

Telling the founders of the greatest Nation-State this world has ever seen is just a tad out of your league my friend. Perhaps stick to bashing nVidia?

Why does Joe bother? You don't seek truth, you seek your little worldview and nothing more. Your sig is only too telling.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Heh, and the phrase the separation of church and state does not exist in any official government document penned by the Founding Fathers.

Yup, and didn't they think slavery was ok too? :|

Things change, we learn, we grow; at least some of us do.

 

[PatrickL]

French Constitution; 1st Article, 1st sentence: "Art. 1. - La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale."

Laique equal laic of course

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Thus the "living document" aspect of the Constitution.

That's an opinion, not a fact.



Now this is classic:

Uhm, I'm about to vent a bit...but it's just a knee-jerk reaction to a typical and stereotyping attitude that I hate and loathe that causes it, please don't think it's entirely directed at you.

BACK THE FUCK OFF!!!

What makes you so damned sure you have the slightest clue about what my personal beliefs/philosophy is? You hear me say I think religion is bullshit so suddenly I'm a heathen atheist who doesn't believe in shit?

Grow up!

But Digi...I'm not insulting you...just saying that one particular belief system is lunacy. Why such a reaction? Especially if it's not YOUR belief system

I happen to be an extremely spiritual person who just happens to feel that none of the religions out there are even close to the truth, that doesn't mean I don't think there is a God or Gods! Far from it, it gives me the freedom to contemplate more and diverse options about our Creator/s and how it all fits together.

I HATE it when people think I'm an atheist because I despise religion!

Why?

I wouldn't despise religion so much if I was an atheist, I simply wouldn't care. Religion interferes with peoples search for the truth and enlightenment, and I really truly believe that.

This is funny....

so now...it's just "formal religions" more or less that are loony, and you have no respect for them...but YOUR own personal "religion" or view of things is just peachy keen. What at riot this has become....

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Yup, and didn't they think slavery was ok too? :|

You mean, the accepted morals of the day are vastly different than the morals of today? That is, the Constitution was based on "fantasies of yesteryear?"

Things change, we learn, we grow; at least some of us do.

(See: lots and lots of different "religions based on the bible" that all have differing interpretations based on "the morals of the day".)

 

[digitalwanderer]

All that stuff Vince wrote about the founding father's mistaken beliefs.

You know what Vince? They were all wrong too.

Telling the founders of the greatest Nation-State this world has ever seen is just a tad out of your league my friend.

Why? Just because they accomplished some great things doesn't mean they're without fault, methinks you're a little too generous with your opinions of 'em based on their noteworthy accomplishments.

Perhaps stick to bashing nVidia?

I'll just stick to speaking my mind and calling 'em the way I see 'em, ok?

Why does Joe bother?

Probably the same reason I do, he's bored and it's a fun way to distract yourself.

You don't seek truth, you seek your little worldview and nothing more. Your sig is only too telling.

My sig? How is my sig telling?

 

[John Reynolds]

I've warned you about the personal insults, Vince.

The slavery comment is a bit non sequitur, Dig. People are products of their environment to a large extent, and some of the Founding Fathers were very uncomfortable with the institution of slavery. Washington, for example, had in his will for all his slaves to be freed (Martha, however, did not respect that).