ATI - PS3 is Unrefined

[Brimstone]

But now people are saying it's based on the g71 too because it'll have 90nm too and more pipelines, as RSX I guess or has it been confirmed it has 32? Anyhow, isn't it still possible that both g70 and rsx are being built of the same scheme, that none of them are the original arcitecture? I mean that, without sony nvidia might not have had g70 as it is today?
Or I don't know, I'm just guessing a bit.

G70 = Napalm
RSX = Mark-77

RSX = Rampage Sony Xtreme

 

[mckmas8808]

Ok, lets use a little common sense here. If Nvidia and Sony have been actually working on RSX for 3 years now, why is it based off the G70 core and not an all new GPU with console specific features? Seems they wasted a lot of R&D time and money wouldn't you say?

So it seems like just because Sony didn't have Nvidia do a 100% customize GPU this means the RSX is off the shelf.

So people man. Nvidia said in Dec 2004 that they have been working with Sony for about 2 years right? Wouldn't mean that they starting working on RSX back in early 2003 or very late 2002?

So if you take early 2003 and say that it taped out in the Fall of 2005, that would seem to me that they have been working on the RSX for 2 1/2 years. Doesn't sound to off the shelf to me.

 

[Hardknock]

So it seems like just because Sony didn't have Nvidia do a 100% customize GPU this means the RSX is off the shelf.

So people man. Nvidia said in Dec 2004 that they have been working with Sony for about 2 years right? Wouldn't mean that they starting working on RSX back in early 2003 or very late 2002?

So if you take early 2003 and say that it taped out in the Fall of 2005, that would seem to me that they have been working on the RSX for 2 1/2 years. Doesn't sound to off the shelf to me.

What part of "if they've been working on it for 3 years, why is it based off the G70 core and not an all new GPU with console specific features" did you not understand?

 

[patsu]

What part of "if they've been working on it for 3 years, why is it based off the G70 core and not an all new GPU with console specific features" did you not understand?

Could it be because nVidia wants to enjoy more economy of scale ? Not saying that it'd be based on G70 or not, but sharing their base architecture across 2 different markets (if it makes sense) can be an advantage.

Does all the IP associated with Xenos (e.g., the "Smart Memory") belong to MS or ATI ?

 

[Hardknock]

Here's the thing, lets go by past precedence here. Every single console GPU that has had a significant development time has been an original design. From the N64, PS1, PS2, Saturn, etc... There are many inherent benefits by going this route. For one you get more bang for your buck by designing it exclusively with home console market in mind. The only console that didn't go this route was the Xbox. And that was only because they threw it together at the last minute. It's GPU was based off the top of the line Nvidia PC GPU at the time. Sound similar to the PS3 situation anyone?

 

[mckmas8808]

Whatever Hardknock there's no changing what you think. NO, I don't think the RSX is a complete new design. Does it HAVE to be? No!

Also here's a post that Mark Reign made @ the GAF

The statement "The Epic demo was running on a PC, and it was done using an early 7800 in SLI mode, so that was a high-end PC demo" is completely incorrect.

Our demo was NOT running on a PC. Our E3 PS3 demo was a live demo running on a PS3 development kit.


--Mark Rein, Epic Games Inc.

So that right there proves that the ATI guy is talking crazy. Case closed.

 

[Hardknock]

Whatever Hardknock there's no changing what you think. NO, I don't think the RSX is a complete new design. Does it HAVE to be? No!

Also here's a post that Mark Reign made @ the GAF



So that right there proves that the ATI guy is talking crazy. Case closed.

Uhh, a development kit that was based off a PC GPU... This did not prove the ATi rep wrong at all.

 

[patsu]

The only console that didn't go this route was the Xbox. And that was only because they threw it together at the last minute. It's GPU was based off the top of the line Nvidia PC GPU at the time. Sound similar to the PS3 situation anyone?

Not really... from what little I know, the terms of the agreement is different in essence, and can have very different outcome. PC-GPU architecture or not, the nVidia-MS relationship in Xbox1 is very rigid and leaves little room for MS to improve on the manufacturing of the GPU (to cut cost).

Cheers

 

[weaksauce]

Uhh, a development kit that was based off a PC GPU... This did not prove the ATi rep wrong at all.

There's no PC's running cell. If you wanna talk about pc-devkits, take a look at the alpha devkits for 360.

 

["Nerve-Damage"]

PS3 DEV-Kit Run Down:

Cell Evaluation Kit (Codename: Shreck):
* CPU: Cell @ 2.4GHz
* AGP: Geforce Based
* Memory: 256MB XDR
Note: Metallic Monster Case

The preliminary development kit, code-named "Shreck," was a huge square metallic machine that ran with a 2.4GHz Cell chip and 256MB XDR memory. The machine got a face-lift during spring and was renamed to "Cytology," and it is currently about the size of a normal PC. Though it still runs at 2.4GHz, it comes with an upgraded memory size of 512MB.

PS3 Evaluation Kit (Codename: Cytology):
* CPU: Cell @ 2.4GHz
* GPU: SLI NVIDIA 6800 Ultras
* Memory: 512MB XDR
* Bus System: PCI Express
Note: This model has the reduced case size, the extra 256MB XDR, and the rumored SLI Nvidia 6800 Ultra graphic cards.

PS3 Alpha Dev-Kit:
* CPU: Cell @ 2.4GHz
* GPU: NVIDIA 7800 GTX
* Memory: 512MB of XDR
* Bus System: 16x PCI Express
Note: SLI Configuration models are also rumored (PS3 UT2007).

PS3 Alpha Dev-Kit (Model 2):
* CPU: Cell @ 3.2GHz
* GPU: NVIDIA 7800 GTX
* Memory: 512MB of XDR
* Bus System: 16x PCI Express
Note: A rumored model that contains a 3.2GHz Cell CPU.

PS3 Reference Tool:
* CPU: Cell @ 3.2GHz
* GPU: RSX
* Memory: 512MB XDR
* Bus System: FlexIO
* IO Devices: Blu-Ray Drive & HDD

PS3 Final Dev-Kit (Fine Tuned To Spec):
Note: Rumored to be released in Mid-February or early March 2006.

 

[Hardknock]

There's no PC's running cell. If you wanna talk about pc-devkits, take a look at the alpha devkits for 360.

The dev kit they used was using a 7800 PC GPU. Not only that, but the Unreal Tournament 2007 demo at E3 only showed the power of the GPU not Cell. Here's a comment they made.


http://ps3.ign.com/articles/615/615178p1.html

I know we'll certainly be able to achieve much more on the final box than we were able to show in our demo after working with the early dev kit for only ~2 months. As Tim mentioned our demo only really showed off the power of RSX and then still we're talk about an RSX that's nowhere near as fast as the final one will be. When we get home from E3 we'll also start diving seriously into the power of the cell processor.

 

[Nicked]

Did you transcribe the interview Hardknock? If not, can you link to the original source.

 

[weaksauce]

The dev kit they used was using a 7800 PC GPU. Not only that, but the Unreal Tournament 2007 demo at E3 only showed the power of the GPU not Cell. Here's a comment they made.


http://ps3.ign.com/articles/615/615178p1.html

Yeah, ok.. but still, the gpu was inside the devkit with the cell, thus it's not a PC.
The ati dude says it's a PC.
Anyhow, whatever, It'll be just better together with cell working.

 

[mckmas8808]

The dev kit they used was using a 7800 PC GPU. Not only that, but the Unreal Tournament 2007 demo at E3 only showed the power of the GPU not Cell. Here's a comment they made.


http://ps3.ign.com/articles/615/615178p1.html

That right there proves that it was NOT a PC that they made this on. Do you read your own quotes?

 

[one]

Also here's a post that Mark Reign made @ the GAF

Is that the real guy?

PS3 Alpha Dev-Kit:
* Bus System: 16x PCI Express

No it's 4x PCI-E. (The 3.2Ghz for the ES in the diagram is a typo, though)
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0722/kaigai199.htm

 

[Hardknock]

That right there proves that it was NOT a PC that they made this on. Do you read your own quotes?

Okay let me walk you through this since you appear to be having trouble.

1. The Utk7 E3 demo was running on a PS3 "Devkit" with slied 7800s.

2. We do not know if this particular dev-kit had a Cell processor or something else as the CPU.

3. Epic states that the E3 demo only shows off the power of the GPU (which the dev-kit used 7800s in SLi) and NOT Cell.

4. The ATi rep states that the Utk7 demo at E3 only really showed off the power of a highend PC.

Now what was wrong with the ATi rep's statement? Nothing.

Thank you and good night.

 

[mckmas8808]

Is that the real guy?

Yep. I guess even he felt that ATI were discrediting the work that they done on the PS3's devkit. ATI has people like Hardknock believing this.

 

[weaksauce]

No he said that because it was a PC, according to him, it was a high-end pc demo.
And isn't 7800gtxsli just a rumor?

 

[mckmas8808]

Okay let me walk you through this since you appear to be having trouble.

2. We do not know if this particular dev-kit had a Cell processor or something else as the CPU.

4. The ATi rep states that the Utk7 demo at E3 only really showed off the power of a highend PC.

Now what was wrong with the ATi rep's statement? Nothing.

Thank you and good night.

ALL PS3 dev-kits had Cell processors in them. None of them had a P4 or a G4 in them. You are thinking about the 360 dev kits.

And this is what the ATI guy said.

The Epic demo was running on a PC, and it was done using an early 7800 in SLI mode, so that was a high-end PC demo

He is wrong. Mark Reign even said so. And that was his first post at the GAF. What is it that you don't understand? Why do you feel like you HAVE to believe this ATI guy? Sony never had PC's for devkits.

 

["Nerve-Damage"]

No it's 4x PCI-E.
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0722/kaigai199.htm
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0722/kaigai02l.gif

Dude what are you talking about?

I know the Evaluation System uses the 4x PCI Express Bus System.

I have the PS3 Evaluation System listed as is (i.e. PCI Express)

The 16x PCI Express figure are for the current PS3 Dev-Kits!!

The 7800 GTX Based PS3 Alpha Kits (the ones running PS3 UT2007), uses the 16x PCI Express System.

Cell Evaluation Kit (Codename: Shreck):
* CPU: Cell @ 2.4GHz
* AGP: Geforce Based
* Memory: 256MB XDR
Note: Metallic Monster Case

The preliminary development kit, code-named "Shreck," was a huge square metallic machine that ran with a 2.4GHz Cell chip and 256MB XDR memory. The machine got a face-lift during spring and was renamed to "Cytology," and it is currently about the size of a normal PC. Though it still runs at 2.4GHz, it comes with an upgraded memory size of 512MB.

PS3 Evaluation Kit (Codename: Cytology):
* CPU: Cell @ 2.4GHz
* GPU: SLI NVIDIA 6800 Ultras
* Memory: 512MB XDR
* Bus System: PCI Express
Note: This model has the reduced case size, the extra 256MB XDR, and the rumored SLI Nvidia 6800 Ultra graphic cards.

PS3 Alpha Dev-Kit:
* CPU: Cell @ 2.4GHz
* GPU: NVIDIA 7800 GTX
* Memory: 512MB of XDR
* Bus System: 16x PCI Express
Note: SLI Configuration models are also rumored (PS3 UT2007).

PS3 Alpha Dev-Kit (Model 2):
* CPU: Cell @ 3.2GHz
* GPU: NVIDIA 7800 GTX
* Memory: 512MB of XDR
* Bus System: 16x PCI Express
Note: A rumored model that contains a 3.2GHz Cell CPU.

PS3 Reference Tool:
* CPU: Cell @ 3.2GHz
* GPU: RSX
* Memory: 512MB XDR
* Bus System: FlexIO
* IO Devices: Blu-Ray Drive & HDD

PS3 Final Dev-Kit (Fine Tuned To Spec):
Note: Rumored to be released in Mid-February or early March 2006.