ATI Fast14 tech? What difference can it make?

jpr27

Regular
I have been reading about the ATI Fast14 Tech and see some great potential. But I am asking those who have extensive knowledge or have worked with Fast14, what kind of advantage can this technology really bring ATI and other chip advancements overall? There has been mention of heat and chip size to some degree but in terms of overall power all things being equal.

Say for example ATI develops two identical GPU (same ram/ clock speeds) and the only difference is one uses the Fast 14 tech. What advantage if any would there be?

My guess is it might bring more to the table then alot of people may realize. But then again its just a Guess :) Did'nt NV also license the the technology?


***There is no Luck...Only the Will and Desire to Succeed !!!***
 
From the various comments on different threads in which Fast14 has been brought up, it seems like an unknown quantity even in the B3D community. There have been no reports of NVDA licensing the technology.
 
From what I understand there are a few key benefits.

Higher Performance
CMOS process improvements no longer yield dramatic performance increases. Fast14 Technology has achieved multi-GHz performance in processes ranging from 180nm to 130nm. Performance of 400 MHz to 4 GHz is achievable with Fast14 Technology at 90nm and 65nm without requiring exotic processing techniques.

Lower Die Cost
As process improvements offer diminishing returns, entire classes of products have resorted to parallel processing to stay competitive. Fast14 Technology reduces area by replacing numerous parallel processing elements with single elements operating at much higher frequencies.

Lower Power
Beyond 300 MHz, traditional design methods rapidly lose power efficiency due to higher voltages and larger transistors. Each CMOS process generation compounds leakage problems by an order of magnitude. Fast14 Technology reduces leakage through transistor efficiency and lower voltage while enabling multi-GHz performance.

http://www.intrinsity.com/home.htm

As far as I know ATI has entered into some sort of arrangement to help develop the technology.

AUSTIN, Texas (February 5, 2004) - Intrinsity®, the Faster processor company™, today announced it is entering into a technology licensing and development agreement with ATI Technologies Inc. (TSX: ATY, NASDAQ: ATYT). Under the agreement, ATI is licensing Intrinsity's Fast14® Technology for use in future consumer products.

"We're combining ATI's pioneering leadership in consumer technologies with Intrinsity's proven chip-design technology to create innovative products with stunning levels of visualization and integration," said Bob Feldstein, Vice President of Engineering, ATI Technologies, Inc. "We selected Intrinsity after determining that Fast14 Technology can deliver up to four times the performance per silicon dollar when compared with standard design approaches."

It might be another year to six months before products start using the technology since it must take at least two years to design, test, and build a new product.

I suspect that it will be really useful in the low end to keep performance up and costs down while in the high end it allow them to dramatically extend performance with affecting yields and blowing their transistor budget.
 
Performance of 400 MHz to 4 GHz is achievable with Fast14 Technology at 90nm and 65nm without requiring exotic processing techniques.
February 5 said:
It might be another year to six months before products start using the technology since it must take at least two years to design, test, and build a new product.
And ATi hasn't said a thing about it... :oops:

Think this is their big surprise? It could explain why nVidia is pushing SLI, mebbe they will need it to compete with ATi.... :oops:
 
The technology could be a dud as well. If it is difficult to implement or requires too much logic to feed the execution units.
 
rwolf said:
It might be another year to six months before products start using the technology since it must take at least two years to design, test, and build a new product.

You're assuming that the Feb 5, 2004 announcement kicked-off ATI's exploration and use of Fast-14. Maybe. Maybe not. :LOL:
 
Unknown Soldier said:
I always thought the R5xx would use Fast14 tech.

US

Problem is are they going to add the technology to a chip that has been designed and under development for at least a year.
 
rwolf said:
Unknown Soldier said:
I always thought the R5xx would use Fast14 tech.

US

Problem is are they going to add the technology to a chip that has been designed and under development for at least a year.

Do you think Sony's & NV's cooperation began the day after they announced the agreement?
 
Well how fast can ATI get the R5xx to go if it does use Fast14 .. especially after the remarks like.

"We're combining ATI's pioneering leadership in consumer technologies with Intrinsity's proven chip-design technology to create innovative products with stunning levels of visualization and integration," said Bob Feldstein, Vice President of Engineering, ATI Technologies, Inc. "We selected Intrinsity after determining that Fast14 Technology can deliver up to four times the performance per silicon dollar when compared with standard design approaches."

US
 
if we see this anytime soon we'd see it on the r600 not the r520. They wont need it with the 90nm shrink. But when they try putting the r600 on that process they will most likelyn eed it
 
Unknown Soldier said:
Well how fast can ATI get the R5xx to go if it does use Fast14 .. especially after the remarks like.
Well, I'm sure that's mostly just marketing speak. After all, GPU's are a different beast from many other processors out there. They're huge and they're pushed to the absolute limits as far as heat/power consumption go. They also have more R&D poured into them than probably any other type of chip out there save CPU's.

Personally, I would venture to guess that gains on the order of 5-20% would be most likely due to this tech. But that doesn't consider the fact that if ATI wasn't licesning this technology, they'd be spending that money on R&D in other areas, so it may not be even that much faster. As for how it compares to what nVidia will be doing, well, there are many ways to leverage more performance, and nVidia working on their own methods to increase silicon performance doesn't necessarily put them at a disadvantage.

It all depends upon where nVidia and ATI are focusing most of their development money. This really is a game of guesswork and luck. The company that managed to pick the right strategy moving forward will gain more marketshare. But, in all likelihood, both companies' products will be very close.
 
geo said:
rwolf said:
It might be another year to six months before products start using the technology since it must take at least two years to design, test, and build a new product.

You're assuming that the Feb 5, 2004 announcement kicked-off ATI's exploration and use of Fast-14. Maybe. Maybe not. :LOL:

How do you read that out of text which clearly seems to imply that design and testing with Fast14 began 12 months ago? They say it takes at least two years to make the transition and they will probably need another 6 to 12 months. Using math on words it would seem to be another way of saying "We have been working on it for a year or so, but we need about one more year because the total time of transition is approximately two years according to our estimates."

Besides, why are people assuming ATI needs Fast14 for something like R520? Even if they are making experiments into using Fast14 on R5xx, it could very well be for reasearch purposes only, not wanting or needing to rely on new process technology on a part with a looming deadline. Going forward it may very well be a god-send, but I highly doubt it is critical for their next part. It would be cutting it too close. Or are people, once again, assuming that R520 will be something so devastatingly advanced beyond current standards that it needs Fast14 and some dilithium crystals to run?
 
This is an excerpt from a January 10 article published by Microprocessor Report (copyright issues, so I'm only pasting a few portions relevant to the ATI relationship).

Intrinsity Takes Its IP on the Road
First Licensee Was ATI; More to Follow
By Kevin Krewell

Intrinsity has been the subject of numerous Microprocessor Report articles. In the past, we've reported on Intrinsity's proprietary and patented Fast14 logic design and the processors (FastMath and FastMIPS) the company produced using this technology that outperformed the competition. Intrinsity's design even won our Analysts' Choice Award for best extreme processor of 2002. (See MPR 2/18/03-05, "Extremely High Performance.") Fast14 allowed the FastMath processor to run at 2.5GHz in 130nm process while most of its competitors were struggling to get to 1GHz.

But Intrinsity is a small company populated mostly by engineers. Building processors is one thing; selling them, quite another. Although the founders had visions of creating a fabless processor company much like SiByte or QED, those other companies were subsumed by larger companies with a broader product base while Intrinsity was still slugging it out on its own. Eventually, Intrinsity's business model of selling processors became untenable. Still, the company had a design technology that could give any chip company an unfair advantage over those using traditional design methodologies and binary logic design. Intrinsity has now transitioned from fabless semiconductor manufacturer to licensable IP and consulting company and is offering the market its Fast14 technology and design chain.

In February 2004, Intrinsity announced it had licensed the Fast14 process to ATI. (See MPR 2/23/04-01, "Intrinsity Licenses Fast14 to ATI.") At the time, ATI claimed it expected Fast14 would allow ATI's synthesized graphics cores to run about four times faster than those created using the traditional design process. This situation would offer ATI a significant advantage over its competition. First, however, ATI must incorporate the Fast14 design flow into its tool chain, something that still requires considerable support from Intrinsity. To date, ATI has not commented on when or where it will use the Fast14 technology.

Before that announcement, we wrote that "If it's as easy to design and build a 2GHz microprocessor using Fast14 as Intrinsity claims, there should be a huge market awaiting the company in the system-on-a-chip business. Whether Intrinsity will pursue this market, or simply use its technology and tools to create standard parts, remains to be seen." As we saw, Intrinsity tried to pursue the chip market, but its effort appears to have fallen short.

----------------------

Speed Comes With a Price
As noted earlier, we've written extensively about Intrinsity and Fast14. The technology has great promise and has been demonstrated to work in real chips. Therefore, one might ask, what is preventing greater acceptance? As we noted, Intrinsity was using the Fast14 technology to develop its own chips. With the change in business model, Intrinsity must do more to educate the design community on the way to migrate to a Fast14 design flow.

Fast14 works best in computational and control circuits but is less well suited for load and store buffers. Therefore, real-world designs will likely require a mix of dynamic and static logic. The use of NDL logic does lead to more interconnect lines, which could create a design problem. Transistors continue to scale down, but it's more difficult to scale copper interconnects without increasing wire resistance.

Before Intrinsity can support tons of designs, however, it must port its design library to a greater variety of semiconductor processes. Unfortunately, although the design methodology process has been automated, Intrinsity has not automated the development of its library on new semiconductor processes. Each library development effort requires three to six months, which could slow new design efforts.

The biggest problem for Intrinsity is probably that of education and the inertia of the chip-design community. Adopting Fast14 requires a new design methodology for circuit designs, and it requires training and handholding from Intrinsity (at least in the early phases). Intrinsity is still a relatively small company and can support training only a limited number of engineers. Opening up Fast14 for wider acceptance will require more time, people, and money.
 
wireframe said:
geo said:
rwolf said:
It might be another year to six months before products start using the technology since it must take at least two years to design, test, and build a new product.

You're assuming that the Feb 5, 2004 announcement kicked-off ATI's exploration and use of Fast-14. Maybe. Maybe not. :LOL:

How do you read that out of text which clearly seems to imply that design and testing with Fast14 began 12 months ago?

That's not what I read. What I read was "announced". These kinds of deals do not get done by someone at ATI stumbling on these guys on the web one day and signing a contract the next. There is due diligence, and it can be quite extensive and practical in nature. Too, often the contract is written in such a way as to negotiate when the annoucement will be made. In these situations, usually there are opposite interests on that point by the two partners. ATI would probably like the announcement to come as late as possible so as to achieve strategic surprise as much as possible. The other fellows want the value of their company to go up, their media coverage, and their cred with other potential customers to rise, as soon as possible and would push for an early date.

I have no special knowledge on how it played out in the end on this particular relationship. . .I'm just saying don't take that announcement at face value as being the beginning of when serious work started on ATI beginning to integrate Fast-14 into their new product plans.

It could have been later too, of course (actually integrating into their product plans, I mean). But if it were to come out somewhere down the road that it actually began six months earlier than that annoucement it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
 
kemosabe said:
This is an excerpt from a January 10 article published by Microprocessor Report (copyright issues, so I'm only pasting a few portions relevant to the ATI relationship).


Before Intrinsity can support tons of designs, however, it must port its design library to a greater variety of semiconductor processes. Unfortunately, although the design methodology process has been automated, Intrinsity has not automated the development of its library on new semiconductor processes. Each library development effort requires three to six months, which could slow new design efforts.

Hmm! That could be significant. Anyone know how that compares to other tools (or, say ATI's previous tool)? Or any annoucements from Intrinsity about their tool's readiness for 90nm?

Possible hint here on "new low power technologies" http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=19235&forum=9
 
Geo,

I made a mistake attributing the statement made by rwolf to some official ATI spokesperson. In tracking the quote I ended up on Digitalwanderer's quote and it has no author attached. I erroneously assumed that the quote was picked from an external source.

Now it makes sense to me. Rwolf is speculating. I thought the statement was official, in which case it would have been clear that ~12 months had passed toying with the technology and another 12 months would be needed for completion. Sorry about the confusion.
 
wireframe said:
I made a mistake attributing the statement made by rwolf to some official ATI spokesperson. In tracking the quote I ended up on Digitalwanderer's quote and it has no author attached.
What, you don't consider me an official spokesperson for ATi? :|
 
Back
Top