At last, a no compromise hybrid DVD/HD disc.

[ultimate_end]

Happy "holidays" everyone, BTW.

According to this press release (also reported by Impress AV Watch), JVC has developed a prototype hybrid DVD/Blu-ray disc that integrates a one BD layer (~25GB) and two DVD layers (total of 8.5GB) on a single side. This of course means that most DVD movies will be able to be fit on the one disc and that an HD quality movie can be played as well (providing you have the player obviously). It also means that the HD movie can have reasonably high video and sound quality due to the extra capacity that a BD layer provides over a HD-DVD layer for example.

Just to keep this on topic (and I'm probably stretching things a bit), can we speculate that maybe PS2 games might come out on these discs? So there would also be a PS3 version of the game on the same disc and that when you buy a PS3 (if you buy one) you would already have something to play (that didn't look "last gen"). The PS3 version would have to have some extra content to make it worth playing, obviously. Hey, I know the hybrid PS2/PS3 disc sounds rediculous, I'm just trying to keep the post relevant .

The release also mentions something about a disc that has the DVD layers on one side of a disc and two BD layers (50GB) on the other side.

Here's an internet translation, in case you don't feel like checking the link(you'll be missing out on some pics though):

Victor Co. of Japan, Ltd. (JVC) is the first in the world which realizes three-layer structure of BD (blue ray disk) single layer and two layers of DVDs, and can record both HD image and SD (standard) image on the disk of one sheet with an original highly efficient reflective film. * の BD-DVD combination ROM disk technology (sum total capacity of 33.5GB) was developed. (As of *ecember 24, 2004)

It is the disk of the three layer structure of one side reading where this disk prepared BD single layer (it is the signal layer which stored HD image, and is the capacity of 25GB) in the surface portion, and prepared two layers (it is the capacity of 8.5GB in the signal layer which stored SD image) of DVDs in the inside. nud Fig. 1 . About the time of BD reproduction, BD layer of a surface portion is reproduced by the blue laser of BD apparatus, and an internal DVD layer is reproduced by the red laser of DVD apparatus at the time of DVD reproduction. nud Fig. 2 . While our company made full use of the disk process technology cultivated for years until now, the original highly efficient reflective film with the character "the red laser for DVD penetrates although the blue laser for BD is reflected" was developed, and three layer structure of one side reading was realized.

In addition, since the two-layer structure (capacity of 8.5GB) which is in use is adopted as the DVD layer of this disk, on the occasion of utilization, as [ of data そ of DVD software on sale ] is utilizable.
When the software which recorded the image of both BD and DVD on the disk of one sheet is put in practical use by development of this disk, ""With the small television and PC (the going-out place mobile PC) of a single room, SD image of DVD is enjoyed for HD image of BD high definition in living with" a big-screen TV. SD image is enjoyed by DVD apparatus at the beginning of soft purchase. After BD apparatus purchase becomes possible [ how to enjoy oneself of enjoying HD image of BD" ]. When the mass feature is harnessed, in addition to an image, contents, such as advertisement, music, and a game, can also be recorded, and the possibility of the disk of one sheet spreads greatly.
Moreover, since it is collected into one sheet, it is considered that BD and DVD can contribute also to saving resources and energy saving.

Our company will make the standard proposal of this disk technology to a blue lei disk association (BDA) towards utilization from now on. Furthermore, one more step of large scale-ization is also tackled and development of sum total capacity the disk of 58.5GB (BD2 layer 50 GB+DVD2 layer 8.5GB) is also aimed at.

*********
<The main features of a BD-DVD combination ROM disk>

1 The signal of both BD and DVD is recorded on the first in the world and the disk of one sheet.
- One side reading and a combination disk with [ BD layer / portion / surface ] / to the inside / the DVD layer by sticking BD layer (signal layer which stored HD image), and a DVD layer (a signal layer, two layers which stored SD image) with advanced positioning adhesion technology were realized for the first time in the world.
- Blue laser light is reflected, and red laser light develops the original highly efficient reflective film to penetrate, and applies it to BD layer. This became possible to reproduce a DVD layer by red laser through BD layer.
- The two-layer structure (a maximum of 8.5GB) which is in use is adopted as a DVD layer. Together with the storage capacity of a maximum of 25GB of BD layer, no less than a total of 33.5GB of large scale was realized.
2 The three-layer structure disk by double-sided fabrication
The manufacturing technique based on mass-production experience of a DVD disk is united with the detailed processing nanotechnology cultivated by BD disk development. By carrying out double-sided fabrication of one side of BD layer and a DVD layer, the prospect was attached to productivity almost equivalent to BD disk only for reproduction.

 

[cthellis42]

Now that's one busy disk.

This would probably have been better placed in the HD-DVD/BR conglomerate thread, but it's slipped a page or two, so I can see how you missed it. ^_^

I assume the primary use would likely be HD and regulard DVD movies on a single disk for consumers in a more palatable form than HD-DVD's current hybrid (no flipping required, and they'll just "look better" by being able to have the usual disk designs and information the public likes on one side. The "two BD layers on two sides disk" might have more room, but I think they type of disk ultimately loses out with the average consumer), and the only thing that really affects how manufacturers will roll it out is "how much they cost to manufacture" and "in what quantities?" If it's not so cheap or mass-scale that extra cost will be passed along to consumers, then the question is "how much more?" Too much, and it doesn't really matter what a disk does. And if manufacturers lose too much margin trying to bring fancy disks out at a market-palatable price...

At any rate, if the disk is good and viable, I can certainly see HD/SD hybridization on them, and I could see PS3/PS2 games as well! However, not as much would be expected on the Playstation front, as it's all well and good to have the capability of having PS3/PS2 games, but then you have to program the game for both--so it all depends on when we get over the "next generation hump" and publishers/developers stop determining "old generation games" really worth it. (In other words, the ones must likely to get a treatment are the ones that will be riding on license and not tech anyway, so the PS3 game is unlikely to be impressive, and the PS2 hybrid will be similar shruggable schlock.) Games desiring more room (and it would take a while for that) would be less likely to pursue this option than simply a dual-layer BR.

I do, however, see this is a possible boon for bigger pub/dev houses with larger libraries, as it's no skin off their bones to re-realease old games with new ones--so it's especially good to games in the same license. Want to play Silent Hill 5? Well, here's Silent Hills 2, 3, and/or 4 for you as well! A way to get a lot more desirability and interest in new games through the easy inclusion of the old ones. Also, of course, if they're interested, it makes for an easy way to include soundtracks, watchable movies, and other types of "extra value" content for the consumer that doesn't have to be played all on one machine. Think JVC can make a CD/DVD/BR disk as well?

Now if only we knew for sure what form of backwards compatability exists on the PS3... :?

 

[ultimate_end]

Yeah, sorry, I had forgotten all about the DVD/BD thread .

Yes, I am under the impression that the hybrid type of disc is a "transition phase" product. I think that one intention of these types of disc is so that if you have a normal DVD player, you can buy the hybrid disc and then when you upgrade to an HD player you will not have to buy the same movie twice. This, from what I've seen, seems to be the main complaint about the next gen formats. So yeah, two versions of the same movie on the one disc. This disc would be slightly more expensive than a DVD, but some consumers would end up saving money, so I guess it's a kind of niche product in that sense.

This was discussed in the hybrid HD-DVD thread. The HD-DVD hybrid (at least the initial one) I believe was single sided, with one 4.7GB red-laser layer and one 15GB blue-violet laser layer. But as you'll know, a lot of DVDs now (even without extras) fill up more than 4.7GB. So if you bought the HD-DVD hybrid copy of the movie then you might have to be getting two discs to fit just the movie and probably more, if there are extras. The other "problem" with the HD-DVD hybrid disc was that, being HD-DVD, the layer was limited to 15GB capacity. That's actually enough to fit any movie, with reasonable mpeg4 or VC-1 encoding, but when you want anything more than this (like high bitrate video with high bitrate audio) then 15GB is woefully inadequite (possibly even requiring a 50 GB Blu-ray disc, depending on what you want). So the 25GB layer of this JVC disc is a little bit less of a compromise for hybrid discs.

As for the PS3/PS2 disc, I was thinking about games that come out on both the latest console and the previous console, like Tony Hawks for one example. The two versions are already coded anyway, so why not put out a hybrid disc for PS2? So that people who can't afford a PS3 can buy their usual game and then they can put that disc straight into their new PS3 when they eventually get it. Saves them having to fork out $$$ for new games to try out the latest graphics/physics etc. Again, it's a sort of transition product. But ofcourse in a lot of ways games are not movie films, people usually just go out and buy the latest version of the game anyway, so I didn't think that it would happen, to be honest.

I do, however, like your idea to put not only the PS3 game on a disc, but also PS2 prequals and things. It gives a ton of added value, without costing a cent extra in development costs. Even just being able to have a more games on one disc is a bonus in terms of keeping the physical size of your collection to a minimum. I think that's a great idea. Ofcourse, as you say, it is a question of whether there is enough demand for the product to make it viable or not. On the one hand I don't think there would be the demand, but on the other hand I see niche games being released currently, which shows that some publishers aren't completely obsessed with economies of scale .

Yes, it would definately be good to have a hybrid disc that had standard old CD on it as well. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be possible, but it would be great if you could play the disc in a standard CD player. A couple of months ago I bought Phantom Brave, which came with a bonus soundtrack CD. It would have been great if I could just play the game disc in a CD player and not have this extra disc floating around. I think it might be just me, but I really don't like having more discs than I need. Look at those 4/5 disc Lord of the Rings box sets .

As for the Playstation backwards compatability, I too wonder about that, as its been hinted at by Sony, but never 100% confirmed that PS3 would play Playstation games. It should be a cakewalk for PS3 to emulate the Playstation, but then you have to get someone to actually write the emulator first. I hope they have time, new consoles' final hardware/release time is always notoriously razor thin. I personally hope they do get the backwards compatibility going, as I actually still play some of my Playstation games. But I never played them on my PS2 because it was too noisy and made the games look terrible. I hope Sony gets the compatability good this time, so that I can finally retire my old Playstation which barely works any more anyway .

 

[wco81]

Well there are cinephiles who think a single 25 GB layer isn't enough for HD.

So they won't be happy to see HD content limited to a single 25 GB layer.

What would help BD the most in its format war against HD-DVD?

To use 50 GB of storage for the best possible picture and sound quality? Or use that space to fit a TV box set on a single disc?

Or, have a transition product where a disc contains both SD and HD versions of a movie so that people can accumulate content and be ready when they get a BD player?

Problem with the first idea is that people demanding the best quality are a niche while the problem with the second idea is that it encourages people to put off buying a BD player, which may not be so good when you're in a format war.

 

[ultimate_end]

Well there are cinephiles who think a single 25 GB layer isn't enough for HD.

So they won't be happy to see HD content limited to a single 25 GB layer.

What would help BD the most in its format war against HD-DVD?

To use 50 GB of storage for the best possible picture and sound quality? Or use that space to fit a TV box set on a single disc?

Or, have a transition product where a disc contains both SD and HD versions of a movie so that people can accumulate content and be ready when they get a BD player?

Problem with the first idea is that people demanding the best quality are a niche while the problem with the second idea is that it encourages people to put off buying a BD player, which may not be so good when you're in a format war.

You can't do what you can't do. This is merely BD's answer to the HD-DVD hybrid disc and as such is pound for pound the most viable solution for this type of situation. If your not happy with this, then there is always the double sided version that JVC has said that they're aiming for. That will have 50GB Blu-ray dual layer on one side.

I myself will want nothing less than High bitrate mpeg4 AVC and 6.1 channel 96/24 uncompressed sound for my HD movies. That's the only thing that would make it worth getting into HD movies IMO. So that may possibly be considered being a "cinephile".

As for whether or not to make super HD content or box sets, the market will probably end up deciding that, if infact the market won't actually support both, which I personally believe is possible. As for TV box sets, well I'm not sure the market for super HD Television is particularly large to be honest, I could be wrong though. Again, we'll have to wait and see.