Apple is an existential threat to the PC

[Entropy]

Maybe it is Apple who should serve the high-end graphics industry by designing GPUs specifically for them instead of expecting the opposite to happen with a nearly nonexistent market share ?

If Apple wants to realistically avoid the pitfalls behind common antipatterns on tilers then they should make their GPUs compatible with the IMR pipeline if 99% of the industry decided that they want to optimize their software for them. Apple as it currently stands has zero bargaining power against them ...

Your world view is strange, to say the least.
There are 1.3 million registered iOS developers, it’s not as if there is a lack of developers with experience targeting the new Mac hardware.
Or as if it is rocket science to adapt code to run better on TBDRs, they have easy to follow developer videos (and readable material) describing "if your app currently does this, you would gain a lot by doing it like this instead", and show with graphics both why and how. You don’t have to be a programming rock star to follow along.
Now that may not bring the full benefits of a ground up design targeting the platform, but it is better than just dumping code over. If a developer/publisher can’t be arsed to do even that, given the work that it’s going to take to make a port anyway, maybe they should simply stay off the platform because their product is unlikely to be very successful.

Even taken in isolation, the Mac market is actually decently sized. They may only have a bit over a hundred million users or so, but their customers are largely people who buy software as opposed to administrative accounts. Not to mention that they typically pay for their software.

 

[Lurkmass]

Your world view is strange, to say the least.
There are 1.3 million registered iOS developers, it’s not as if there is a lack of developers with experience targeting the new Mac hardware.
Or as if it is rocket science to adapt code to run better on TBDRs, they have easy to follow developer videos (and readable material) describing "if your app currently does this, you would gain a lot by doing it like this instead", and show with graphics both why and how. You don’t have to be a programming rock star to follow along.
Now that may not bring the full benefits of a ground up design targeting the platform, but it is better than just dumping code over. If a developer/publisher can’t be arsed to do even that, given the work that it’s going to take to make a port anyway, maybe they should simply stay off the platform because their product is unlikely to be very successful.

Even taken in isolation, the Mac market is actually decently sized. They may only have a bit over a hundred million users or so, but their customers are largely people who buy software as opposed to administrative accounts. Not to mention that they typically pay for their software.

You know just as much as well as I do how meaningless the "1.3 million registered iOS developers" figure is ...

How many of those developers actually work on games or let alone high production value games ? How many of them specialize in creating high-end graphical applications ? How often do these specific demographics release their software on Apple platforms as well and are they they the same software at feature parity ? How much and what parts of the industry have an understanding of the Metal API ?

99%+ of the high-end graphics industry is dictated by PC and console hardware so it's highly dubious that Apple will be able to control their technical practices. If Apple decides to force developers to do more maintenance to get better performance with Apple GPUs then most developers will quit since the added maintenance isn't worth releasing software on platforms that already have a small market share. If Apple does give an option for developers to do less maintenance then there will be next to no incentive for them to improve performance on Apple GPUs. Apple meets a bitter end either way by bleeding developers or by losing in benchmarks ...

What other good options are available for Apple aside from changing the hardware design if invasively changing the software design isn't acceptable for developers ? If developers are going to foreseeably optimize their software for IMR pipelines then maybe Apple should follow industry consensus instead of combating it ? Apple needs to consider that there's more to be gained by cooperating with the industry rather than fighting against it and losing out ...

 

[MfA]

They've never needed gaming or CAD to make wild money on laptops, almost everyone worked on Windows regardless of Apple's support of AMD/NVIDIA GPUs.

The fundamentally broken model of PC operating system quality assurance and maintenance will be the death of the PC though. Developers and users will come to them eventually, trying to speed it up by offering more compatibility isn't worth it compared to having more control over their hardware stack.

They can afford to play the long game. Tilers are okay without specific support and fine with ... and the support will come eventually.

 

[PSman1700]

So, apple isnt really a danger to the pc, as apple will just improve the platform. If apple can supply better software and hardware, good job.

 

[MfA]

An Apple computer isn't a PC to me, it's a home computer.

Apple can provide a level of QA and ease of maintenance Windows can't, outside of Surface. Combined with the disappearance of Apple investment in PC hardware development, it looks grim for consumer PCs.

 

[PSman1700]

I dont really care if theres apple hard/sofware or windows10 in the casing. If apple can do that better, they deserve that market. ’PC’ is just a general term to me, home computer then.
Maybe everything will be apple, ps6 with Apple hw, and my home computer some sort of A20 with ios. Aslong it does the job nobody cares.

 

[MfA]

The unintended openness of the IBM-PC created so much innovation, where even small companies could carve out a niche ... it would be a shame to go to a model where only trillion dollar companies can make a dent, by making 100 billion dollar gambles to hope they can start competing with Apple.

I'd rather someone fix some of the fundamental problems of the PC consumer market, before it's too late.

 

[Voxilla]

I'm utterly impressed with the Mini M1, hooked to a 40 inch 4K monitor, as is my PC.
Sharing same keyboard, MX Keys, a wonderful thing also, switching to either system at a press of a key.
Ran some benchmarks like GFX bench, GeekBench and Cinebench R23, and it totally smokes x86 CPUs, I can confirm.
It's like it's not even there when running producing no heat or sound at all.
I can't quite put a 3090 in it, that's why I like PCs too

 

[Flappy Pannus]

As another poster was asking about sustained load, The Verge did a 30-minute loop test of cinebench. The Air does indeed throttle, and quite a bit:

 

[Voxilla]

Imagine what any x86 CPU would do without active cooling, it would not just throttle, but melt.

 

[Kaotik]

Imagine what any x86 CPU would do without active cooling, it would not just throttle, but melt.

No they won't. You can even play Crysis or run benchmarks without any cooling if you want to.

 

[Voxilla]

No they won't. You can even play Crysis or run benchmarks without any cooling if you want to.

I'm seeing like two cooling fans on this video, one standing and one flat.
I don't get sound from the video, if there is any, to get the idea.
The comment on Youtube says:
"The 120mm fan runs at 5V and produce a low and constant airflow"

 

[Kaotik]

I'm seeing like two cooling fans on this video, one standing and one flat.
I don't get sound from the video, if there is any, to get the idea.

Sorry, without any direct cooling, there is indeed 120mm fan running at 5V creating constant low air movement over the bare APU (the big chip in the middle of the laptop). The other fan is part of that laptops normal cooling, but it does nothing to the APU which has been stripped from it's heatpipes and other cooling elements.

 

[Laurent06]

I'm utterly impressed with the Mini M1, hooked to a 40 inch 4K monitor, as is my PC.

My MBP should arrive today.

Sharing same keyboard, MX Keys, a wonderful thing also, switching to either system at a press of a key.

I was considering getting an MX Keys too. What mouse do you use? Do you share it too on your two computers?

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Imagine what any x86 CPU would do without active cooling, it would not just throttle, but melt.

Perhaps? It's not a platform contention post, it was to respond to one person who was interested in sustained workloads and how the Air/Pro differ.

 

[Voxilla]

My MBP should arrive today.


I was considering getting an MX Keys too. What mouse do you use? Do you share it too on your two computers?

I'm currently using 2 different wireless mouses I already had, but I plan to get one of those easy switch mouses too.

 

[Entropy]

You know just as much as well as I do how meaningless the "1.3 million registered iOS developers" figure is ...

How many of those developers actually work on games or let alone high production value games ? How many of them specialize in creating high-end graphical applications ? How often do these specific demographics release their software on Apple platforms as well and are they they the same software at feature parity ? How much and what parts of the industry have an understanding of the Metal API ?

99%+ of the high-end graphics industry is dictated by PC and console hardware so it's highly dubious that Apple will be able to control their technical practices. If Apple decides to force developers to do more maintenance to get better performance with Apple GPUs then most developers will quit since the added maintenance isn't worth releasing software on platforms that already have a small market share. If Apple does give an option for developers to do less maintenance then there will be next to no incentive for them to improve performance on Apple GPUs. Apple meets a bitter end either way by bleeding developers or by losing in benchmarks ...

What other good options are available for Apple aside from changing the hardware design if invasively changing the software design isn't acceptable for developers ? If developers are going to foreseeably optimize their software for IMR pipelines then maybe Apple should follow industry consensus instead of combating it ? Apple needs to consider that there's more to be gained by cooperating with the industry rather than fighting against it and losing out ...

You still have a world view exclusively focussed on the big console publishers AAA titles. Do you truly believe that their graphics developers can’t target Metal if asked to do so? Those decisions are made in boardrooms and spreadsheets. The cost of another graphics API is just a figure in such a spreadsheet.

MacOS has never been a great platform in terms of game selection, so people running MacOS for whom a wide game selection is important have, quite reasonably, either added a PC, used boot camp, or bought consoles. Last quarter Apple sold 6.5 million laptops alone, and their new hardware is quite attractive and no longer support boot camp, so it stands to reason that the games market on MacOS will increase in revenue. Whether that will be enough for the big publishers to invest remains to be seen. (At least WoW is native already, so the odd title is bound to show up.) But it has to be remembered that noone using MacOS does so primarily for the purpose of playing games. And the absence of most large console titles haven’t stopped MacOS from slowly gaining market share as the Windows market has contracted.

The fact of the matter is that Apple has over a billion iOS users, and it is the highest grossing market for games software. Apple doesn’t need the AAA console titles to supply entertainment to those that want to use Macs, and the options on MacOS will get richer as ambitious iOS developers move into that space. (I expect titles examplified by Genshin Impact, offering seamless crossplay between iOS and MacOS platforms, to take a nice share in the future.)

Apple has never been driven by, or needed the big game publishers. Lackluster late ports haven’t built an audience for their wares on Apples OS platforms either. As it stands Apple, and MacOS users, have very little reason to give a damn. It’s just business as usual.

 

[Pressure]

I decided to bite the bullet and buy the new Mac mini M1 with 16GB of RAM to test out. Not sure I get it before Christmas with the delivery times from Apple right now and no one stocks the 16GB variant.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

I decided to bite the bullet and buy the new Mac mini M1 with 16GB of RAM to test out. Not sure I get it before Christmas with the delivery times from Apple right now and no one stocks the 16GB variant.

Same. They originally had Jan 7th as order, but I keep getting updates reducing the window, now scheduled for Dec 29th. Going to be my 'main' system now, while I've had several Macbooks/iPads over the years I've always used a PC primarily, so this is a first.

 

[PSman1700]

It seems the iphone 5s and z5 compact (sd810) are quite much neck on neck in gaming, with the 5s doing better mostly (in special dead trigger 2). Abit strange or was the sd810 in general a bad chip?
Exynos was doing better back then.