* An inspiration on what is dark energy...

g__day

Regular
A friend asked today "how can dark energy appear to act as anti-gravity to expand space and what might it be"?

I had this inspiration:

How do we reconcile dark energy's anti-gravity like behaviour of actually accelerating the inflation of our entire Universe? Well the answer is simple and profound - real estate, or position is everything!

Here are two critical assumptions based on observations:

1) 80% of the Universe appears to be made up from dark energy - so there is alot of it!

2) Accept for a moment that Dark Energy asserts a normal gravitational effect on normal matter and energy but not itself (there is justification for this but its cryptic and I'll leave it out for a moment).

Adding those two factors leads you to realsie two important things:

1) Position is king! By this I mean the galactic layout / shape / position / distribution of all this energy - i.e. where it sits geographically in the cosmos is critical

2) Unlike normal matter / energy it won't clump because of gravity into suns, planets, people, trees and rocks etc. - it will most likely spread out diffusely very, very, very evenly - unbelieveably so (why I'll theorise a bit later).

So put this all together....

Visualise our own solar system. Most of the visible Mass is centred in the Sun, then Planets, then asteroids, then dust, until you get to the vaccuum of space where there is generally 1 - 3 hydrogen atoms per cubic metre. But the dark mass is spread evenly and might account for significant equivalent gravitational mass. Put this aside and next step out side our solar system and proceed to our galaxy, the Milky Way. There is alot of empty space in the Milky Way - potentially chock full of dark energy exerting a gravitational pull.

Now step outside our galaxy and even the galactic cluster containing the Milky Way as one of its many galaxies. Between it and the next galactic cluster is a truly vast amount of empty space - again possible full of dark energy - hence alot of gravity. Possibly enough to explain the observed rotational speeds vs mass of distant galaxies that led us to dark matter / dark energy and Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND).

As the Universe expands allow the dark energy to expand roughly in proportion with it - allowing it to be evenly distrubuted but still bounded by any edge to our Universe. Well this means dark energy is spread evenly throughout, but normal matter / energy tends to be clustered more towards the centre or in galactic cluster to be more accurate. Imagine a shape to the Universe - say a rough sphere. The gravitational effect of dark energy - by location and volume - there is more at the volume as you move out from the centre of a sphere. So gravity from dark energy tends to pulls things out towards the 'edge of the Universe' whilst normal energy / matter tries to pull things all back together back towards a big crunch scenario. Remember from my other thread (a while ago) - gravity is the one elemntal force that isn't quantised - so its effects can apparently go on towards infinity - rather than dwindle to nothing once your distance from a gravitational source is so vast your gravitational force is below the lowest quanta of energy a photon can have.

* * * * Correction to improve the maths

Something told me I'd missed something here, and I realised what it was working on a simple sphere, and asking why would dark energy exert a gravitational force causing expansion rather than contraction sheerly because of its consisten distribution. After all any point away from the centre has more mass between it and the opposite size of the sphere (pulling it back to the centre) than between it and the closest edge to the sphere.

But then I realised 1) the Universe is expanding (unfolding) in all directions at say the speed of light. So opposite edges are receding at apparently (realivisticly) slightly more than twice the speed of light (i.e. the Universe is 14.8 billion years old but believed to have a diameter of 40 billion light years). So many points away from the centre are simply too far away from the opposite edge to every experience its gravitational influence (spacetime warps / gravity must propogate at the speed of light).

So when measuring gravity at any abstract point in a large Universe - as you go thousands or millions of light years out from this point you are actually experiencing the gravitation forces of how the Universe was millions or even billions of years ago. The mass or energy whose gravity you experience could have long since moved or dissipated, possibly millions or even billions of years ago. So combined this means the closer edge of the Universe will have more impact on you, and as it is receding from you it will sort of pull you along. The opposite edge from you is too far away and receding faster than c relative to you so its gravitational influence will never catch up to you. In a Universe expanding at c in all directions, far away from its centre you are moving away so fast from the mass on the other side of the Universe its gravitational pull (wave) can never catch up to you to pull you back!!!

I'd love to model that on a super computer.

* * * *


Finally my own thoughts on what dark energy may be and why it alone is evenly distributed:

M-Theory and superstring symmetry theory postulates we live in a 10 or 11 dimensional rality called a membrane. We commonly observe only 4 of these dimensions space (3) plus mass (=energy) (1). In our reality with our human perception time is wrapped into spacetime, although it might be something very different within our reality and across other membranes, but I digress.

The other 6 or 7 hidden dimensions may be so tiny (think Planck level small 10 ^ -35 metre) and subtle its hard to every observe them. But on a galactic or universal scale these dimensions could significantly affect our percieved reality. Possible what we call dark energy is small periodic leakages of regular energy and mass into and out of these hidden dimensions everywhere (what theorists call quantum foam of spacetime). So I postulate spacetime isn't static - it may be an equilibrium point of normal energy and matter leaking into and back from hidden dimensions in M-Theory. This leakage maybe appearing to us as dark energy and dark matter. Dark matter might just be s-particles or symmetric particles (s-electron, s-neutron, s-proton etc) from string theory. CERN will test this theory in 2007.

So that is a theory on what is Dark Energy (and how it appears). Why is it evenly distributed in spacetime when nothing else is? Because it's the very fabric of our reality itself - it itself is our dimensional infrastructure, so it has to be everywhere by its very definition. This also adds weight (pun intended) on why dark energy doesn't directly effect itself. Those hidden dimension have their own rules for how they interact - what we postulate as dark energy and dark matter might just be leakage from our realities hidden dimensions!

As I said this is my intuition - arrived at this morning - and if I am right I want the Noble prize please!!! Call it the Kendall conjecture
 
never heard of dark energy before :?: :oops:


heard of dark matter but that's simply, despite it's name, nothing more exciting than lumps of crap (metaphorically) floating around the universe whose temperature is the same as the background radiation (~4.3K last time i checked) and so it isn't emitting any noticable radiation and gets the name 'dark' matter.
 
I don't think background microwave radition is uniform, so just because it's the same temprature, wouldn't mean much because we glimmers of it at the least.

Remember from my other thread (a while ago) - gravity is the one elemntal force that isn't quantised - so its effects can apparently go on towards infinity - rather than dwindle to nothing once your distance from a gravitational source is so vast your gravitational force is below the lowest quanta of energy a photon can have.

I didn't read the other thread. How does this work? I was under the impression that there was a sphere of influence.
 
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24438

A better thread I started more recently on is there a maximum distance Gravity can propogate.

PS

It is theorised that 75% of the Universe is comprised of dark energy, 15% is dark mass, less than 10% is what we can directly observe or account for in the vaccuum of space itself.

PPS

Dark mass as used in these models doesn't describe normal matter that simply isn't illuminated by any light source - that is called brown matter. Dark mass is instead super heavy, super slow particles - possible s-particles, that are plentifully, but we can yet detect. So a s-neutrino or and s-anti-neutrino would be a perfect theoretical candidate particle for all the missing dark matter.

Dark energy is alot more abstract to model, start by onserving the fundamental particles and forces summarised here:

http://particleadventure.org/particleadventure/frameless/chart_print.html
 
We should make it clear that there are a few camps in the debate, some overlapping:

1) Astronomers / cosmologists - observing the Universe

2) High energy physicists - trying to understand teh mirco and see if it makes sense at macro levels

3) The Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND) vs Dark Energy / Dark Matter physicists

4) Theoretical physicsts (a key sub group of 2) above) who try and test for gravity waves, super symmetric particles, M-Theory, string theory, hidden dimensions, quantum theory of gravity

I love astronomy, maths and high energy physicts. I own peruse theoretical physics web site for unusual gems or insights or theories. I am very aware MOND vs dark matter / dark energy is fully alive. MOND is very powerful with modifying Newton's laws slightly (the factor of one newton metre per light year or c / calculated radius of Universe) fits 95% of observed data beautifully and makes very verifiable predictions. Dark energy is an unknown - but within string and M-theory there are very interesting allowances for it and its consequences.

I personally lent more towards MOND, but some elements of M-Theory (s-particles and hidden dimensions) might allow a more complicated framework to exists that validates and unifies both group's premises.

Why dark energy creates a gravitional field (be it gravitrons, Higgs bosons) that doesn't affect itself is a real puzzle. It would certainly account for an observed negavitve gravity affect becuase its carriers could disperse so the centre of attraction for gravity for any shaped container would always away from the centre of the shape - the exact opposite effect of the gravity field caused by normal matter or energy.

The real challenge to validate any of these theoretical fields is that deal with and incredibly monstrous number of mind bogglingly small events. This type of theorectical physics is deal with interactions approaching a planck level of distance and time - so between 10 ^ -35 to 10 ^ -42 seconds or metres. In a Planck instant light can barely move the radius of an electron, so measuring these properties with todays tools is impossible. The next generation LHC at CERN takes us to the 200GeV range, so all sorts of quarks, bosons, ferimons and leptons come clearly into view. But we'd need a collider the size of our galaxy to explore the Planck level or reality.

Interesting but esoteric stuff until we boot strap our physics up an order of magnitude or two and discover the foundations for some star trek stuff!
 
I recently move to the High Dessert in Eastern Washington and the Black night sky has rekindled my love of Astronomy. I like the subject and the basic premise. Will need to get up to speed on this.

I also thought that the background radiation was not evenely distributed and this would lead me to think that the Universe, at least an Einsteinian one, is not infinite.

Will read the article you linked at work today. Though Quanta are indeed mind blowing. :oops:

Good luck on your exam Bambers.
 
Grrrr. Dark energy, dark matter, dark <insert here>. Grrrr.

It's all wrong you know, it just feels wrong. It has the same sticky plaster on top of sellotape on top of wallpaper over the cracks feel as some of the monstrosities of the late 19th century, before the arrival of quantum mechanics and relativity (which are also "wrong" by the way).

How many extra dimensions and new forms of matter do you need to invent before you spot that the real problem is that you dropped a minus sign in Eq. 2???
 
^ ^ Same feeling here. All this is just a placeholder to make scientific calculation add up, but we all know that many theories are just "the simplest way to explain a phenomenon", not actually the truth. What s truth anyway? ;)
 
london-boy said:
^ ^ Same feeling here. All this is just a placeholder to make scientific calculation add up, but we all know that many theories are just "the simplest way to explain a phenomenon", not actually the truth. What s truth anyway? ;)

Thats the case until you do experiments. Experiments are at the heart of physics, maybe not its leading edge, but any theory is nothing more until you can proove it and see it for yourself.
 
sytaylor said:
london-boy said:
^ ^ Same feeling here. All this is just a placeholder to make scientific calculation add up, but we all know that many theories are just "the simplest way to explain a phenomenon", not actually the truth. What s truth anyway? ;)

Thats the case until you do experiments. Experiments are at the heart of physics, maybe not its leading edge, but any theory is nothing more until you can proove it and see it for yourself.
Yep, and i believe nothing has been proven yet with regards to dark *anything*...
 
london-boy said:
Yep, and i believe nothing has been proven yet with regards to dark *anything*...

Doesn't mean the theories aren't sound, the only reason they haven't been prooven/disprooven is due to the complexities involved.
 
sytaylor said:
london-boy said:
Yep, and i believe nothing has been proven yet with regards to dark *anything*...

Doesn't mean the theories aren't sound, the only reason they haven't been prooven/disprooven is due to the complexities involved.

^ ^ yes, which means so far they are just arbitrary numbers put in place to make calculations work. Filling the blanks. With "dark energy"....
 
rachaelsdad said:
Good luck on your exam Bambers.


thanks :)


not that it did much good. I think i managed to pass but really wasn't expecting that much, I'd done about half a days revision for this (lectured before easter which didn't pay half as much attention too as I should have) as I'd been doing my project. I'm too disorganised :(


I knew it was bad when I walked in and when presented with a bunch of interactions to say which were possible and which weren't and why and draw feynman diagrams for the ones that were that I couldn't even remember what made up a pion. :rolleyes: couldn't even remember a proton and neutron actually, I had to use the charges on the up and down quarks to work it out. /slaps self.


Grrrr. Dark energy, dark matter, dark <insert here>. Grrrr.

It's all wrong you know, it just feels wrong. It has the same sticky plaster on top of sellotape on top of wallpaper over the cracks feel as some of the monstrosities of the late 19th century, before the arrival of quantum mechanics and relativity (which are also "wrong" by the way).

How many extra dimensions and new forms of matter do you need to invent before you spot that the real problem is that you dropped a minus sign in Eq. 2???

well it depends really.

there was no evidence that gravity warped the path of light or that time changed for people depending on what speed they were doing when einstein invented relativity. It turned out to be true though. Theres been plenty of cases where seemingly needless bits in theorys have later turned out to be true in experiments.

as for being wrong, well that applies to everything really. physics is about trying to model what is seen as best as is possible. If it takes extra dimensions etc to do that then so be it. OF course people should always look for the dropped minus sign but I don't think thats going to happen somehow. Even QM and relativity have a degree of sticky tapeness to them.
 
I knew it was bad when I walked in and when presented with a bunch of interactions to say which were possible and which weren't and why and draw feynman diagrams for the ones that were that I couldn't even remember what made up a pion. couldn't even remember a proton and neutron actually, I had to use the charges on the up and down quarks to work it out. /slaps self.

*shrug* Any half-decent marker, would see that you know the basics and can apply them up to generate anything you're missing. Much more useful than remember a LOT of things.
 
Is anyone else bothered by the way theory is being thrown around in this thread?

Isn't it actually a hypothesis until it's been tested? A theory when several peoples tests agree? And a law when most everyone's tests agree?

Not to be a nitpick or anything, sorry...
 
So Kris - are you upset that I started at the begining rather than the end?

If anyone knew a better framework we'd have a revolution overnight!

Basically I realised in this thread for the first time ever I have summarised why the Bg Bang exploded rather than imploded in laymens terms - rather than the semi-mystical negative vaccuum pressure of spacetime (which I always hated), and secondly I pondered if dark energy mightn't actually be a leakage out of the extra hidden dimensions predicted by string and M-theory.

When you hypothesis something as revolutionary as extra dimensions, you are bound not to have more than theoretically tools to study them. We can't predict what those dimensions are nor their properties yet. The starting point is to try and theorise the topology (shape) of these dimensions - which is happening today. With theLHC we can look directly for s-particles and indirectly for evidence of energy leakage into these hidden dimensions.

If there was a simpler way forward we are yet to discover it!
 
A lot of misconceptions and errors in this thread..

What you are talking about is called the concordance model. It was thrown on us (by us I mean physicists) by several experiments that all agreed and pushed us (believe me unwillingly) into a rather absurd theoretical quagmire. Right now, we are about as certain of these things as we are about Quantum Chromodynamics, which is to say about 1-2% standard deviation. Thats pretty strong evidence, and it keeps getting stronger. Ok, so we deal with it.

Now, depending on the theoretical model you use, the interpretation of the data can change, but the simplest one (the one that describes/predicts/and is verified so strongly that we would hate to throw it away) is general relativity and the FRW/hot big bang universe.

Now, in GR it is bookkeeping really. DarK Energy, say in the form of a cosmological constant is just a way to ensure various conservation laws. It does NOT explain why its there. For that you need something else, say Quantum Gravity. Now naively, you expect some vacuum energy, so its not surprising that it is there.

But why its there (or precisely why its so small, and of the same order of magnitude as regular matter energy) is not known and a huge test for future physics, in fact it is probably THE question of fundamental physics these days.

Now, the first post in this thread confuses dark energy and dark matter. Dark Matter, is actually heavily position dependant, it likely lives in the halo's of normal galaxies. Dark Energy, by definition pervades space-time. It wouldn't make sense that it was clumped, as it would violate various symmetries of quantum field theory. Usually its taken to be some sort of scalar field generated by unknown physics, but it could take on a more complicated form than that.

It can however be time dependant...
 
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