marconelly! said:
I've heard it and almost definately heard from a different source from Fafalada and archie4oz. So there are at least a couple of sources saying the same thing.
Make of that what you will but I wouldn't go placing bets on HDD being in XBOX2
An idea about xbox2
- Thread starter jvd
- Start date
How about M$ making a DVD drive which spins the disc in the opposite direction compared to normal drives?
Completely unreadable by standard drives, totally uncopiable by any standard means unless you own a DVDROM pressing plant. Cost increase would be minimal for a proprietary disc format (you just need a spindle motor that can go in either direction, which any motor should be able to already), and pirates could just forget running copied discs on the XB2 too, since it wouldn't read program code from a standard disc (unless it is a previous-gen XB DVDROM, if it has backwards compatibility and maybe they'll skip that to leave out any possible security loopholes).
Of course you'd use a non-standard filesystem/sector format too, and I expect M$ to deploy their Palladium tech to the fullest, maybe that's where IBM comes in to create this custom CPU that runs hardware encrypted program code according to their scary trusted computing platform thingy.
Pirates would basically be forced out of business if all this anti-piracy stuff is
*G*
Completely unreadable by standard drives, totally uncopiable by any standard means unless you own a DVDROM pressing plant. Cost increase would be minimal for a proprietary disc format (you just need a spindle motor that can go in either direction, which any motor should be able to already), and pirates could just forget running copied discs on the XB2 too, since it wouldn't read program code from a standard disc (unless it is a previous-gen XB DVDROM, if it has backwards compatibility and maybe they'll skip that to leave out any possible security loopholes).
Of course you'd use a non-standard filesystem/sector format too, and I expect M$ to deploy their Palladium tech to the fullest, maybe that's where IBM comes in to create this custom CPU that runs hardware encrypted program code according to their scary trusted computing platform thingy.
Pirates would basically be forced out of business if all this anti-piracy stuff is
*G*
Grall, I had that idea like five years ago, hehehe. It's so obvious and yet so elegant at the same time...
Added: but of course, you just _know_ some 15-year-old Chinese guy is going to come up with hacked firmware for a number of DVD burners to spin backward while burning :}
Added: but of course, you just _know_ some 15-year-old Chinese guy is going to come up with hacked firmware for a number of DVD burners to spin backward while burning :}
Of course! Considering drives can be hacked to correctly read GD-ROMS this would be pretty easy to defeat as well... Then there's the also reading the disc from the outside -> in (like an LP) but that could also easily be defeated...
While a valid assumption of media size, the reasoning behind this is simply absurd. Practically any disc player that uses trays or top-load spindles (GCN aside) can manage 12cm and 8cm media (that's what the indentation on the tray is for)...
marconelly!
Veteran
How do you make such drive read DVDs and audio CDs then?
Instead of making the discs smaller why not make them bigger?
Instead of a 12cm disc have a 13cm one, the developers get more room to put data and you can't fit them into any other medium. Yes this would need new production plants but it is a possiblity while where talking about it.
Instead of a 12cm disc have a 13cm one, the developers get more room to put data and you can't fit them into any other medium. Yes this would need new production plants but it is a possiblity while where talking about it.
Look at GD-ROMS. 1.2GB of data and yet every single game on that system seemingly was reducible to a standard 700MB CD. I actually knew a guy who had pretty much any game that was released in North America that I could think of.
I once read an article by crypto guru Bruce Schneier that made an excellent point: a good security system should not be determined by how well it succeeds but by how well it fails. In this context, one should not aim at a bulletproof solution (its impossible) but instead to make life for the pirates as difficult as possible. This means I would suppose frequent changing of copy protection schema as to invalidate mod-chips (think FF8 PSX), disabling of on-line play (XBLive) etc. ... Of course the "733t d00d5" will get around these one way or another, but you'll scare the 98% of the buyers who are casual fans away from piracy. In other words, a "good failure."
I once read an article by crypto guru Bruce Schneier that made an excellent point: a good security system should not be determined by how well it succeeds but by how well it fails. In this context, one should not aim at a bulletproof solution (its impossible) but instead to make life for the pirates as difficult as possible. This means I would suppose frequent changing of copy protection schema as to invalidate mod-chips (think FF8 PSX), disabling of on-line play (XBLive) etc. ... Of course the "733t d00d5" will get around these one way or another, but you'll scare the 98% of the buyers who are casual fans away from piracy. In other words, a "good failure."
akira888 said:
Yep with the parallel being car/house alarms. The idea is to deter, not necessarily foil or capture the thieves.
jvd said:
What do you mean by a hologram? I don't think laser pickups 'see' holograms as you or I just as you or I don't 'see' pits the same way as the laser pickups. Are you talking about intentional errors?
jvd said:
Because that isn't really any different than the "bad sector" protection used since time immemorial. All you need to do in that case is to replace the firmware which is basically what the PSX/Saturn modchips did. Any sort of protection which relies on the disk having some non-spec characteristic will fail in this way.
jvd said:
How would that be more effective than conventional software based software protection? A cracker would "just" have to tell the software not to read the hologram, or trick it to think that it did.
An interesting idea that was up some years ago was the concept of "weak" bits. Basically it worked by (with aid of a special master burner) making a single bit, that was written so weakly that it could be read as either 1 or 0. When read by consumer hardware, the bit was checked a number of times, by either software or hardware. If it was in either state all the time then, it was certain to be a copy, and would be rejected. The bit could only be pressed, not copied digitally.
But that scheme has the same faults as the one you suggested.
It seems that the most effective software protection schemes are the ones that physically keeps the software from being read by unauthorised hardware.
Exactly, I remember an article about PSOne game that did something to that effect - the authenticity checks didn't fail the game instantly but rather made it buggy (in different ways also) so the pirates cracking the said game not only wasted a lot more time on it, they also had several buggy releases before getting it right.
If this kind of thing was enforced as standard policy for all games on the platform it could work a lot better then any of the 'strong' protection schemes, particularly in dissuading mainstream users from playing the 'buggy' pirate games
jvd said:
That's basically how the Saturn does it. Look on the edge of any of your Saturn originals (I know you have some...) - you'll see a ring on the data side, with 'Produced by or under license from SEGA' printed on.
Nobody's quite sure just what is in that ring, other than the 'Produced by...' text, because it doesn't show up in the TOC and apparently can't even be 'forcibly' read by any drives.
Saturn mod chips just intercept the call from the SH-1 to check the outer ring, and report an OK despite no ring being present on a backup.
Open up your Saturn, hold the little lever in the back to make the system think the lid is closed, and watch the laser as it powers on... you'll see what I mean. A modded Saturn doesn't even send the laser to the edge of the disc.
Fafalada said:Exactly, I remember an article about PSOne game that did something to that effect - the authenticity checks didn't fail the game instantly but rather made it buggy (in different ways also) so the pirates cracking the said game not only wasted a lot more time on it, they also had several buggy releases before getting it right.
If this kind of thing was enforced as standard policy for all games on the platform it could work a lot better then any of the 'strong' protection schemes, particularly in dissuading mainstream users from playing the 'buggy' pirate games
IIRC Spyro?
if I'm not mistaken, the FAME(by codemasters) (or was it named otherwise) was never cracked and (playstation) games who used this kind of protection work but don't behave normal on a chippped ps2 . i don't know why they sell the code to other software houses or if it is'tn cracked already.
If I remember well enough, Bunnie described how easily accessible the Xbox Bios was, and the contrary the GCN Bios was placed beneath the ram, so to get to it you had to dissolve the ram in a solution of H2SO4. Thus resulting in a broken GCN. That made modchips for Xbox a lot easier...
Maybe, they'll think about it this time
http://www.xenatera.com/bunnie/proj/anatak/xboxmod.html
Some things had to be taken of the webpage , though.
EDIT: link and quote [/quote]
An interesting anecdote, btw, is that when Microsoft came by MIT to give the X-BOX/recruiting presentation to the students here, we asked the guy (I forget his name, but he was important--I do recall he claimed to help define the DHCP spec
Maybe, they'll think about it this time
http://www.xenatera.com/bunnie/proj/anatak/xboxmod.html
Some things had to be taken of the webpage , though.
EDIT: link and quote [/quote]
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