AMD: Navi Speculation, Rumours and Discussion [2017-2018]

Discussion in 'Architecture and Products' started by Jawed, Mar 23, 2016.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. A1xLLcqAgt0qc2RyMz0y

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    1,133
    Since Nvidia's Ray Tracing hardware acceleration was a complete surprise and Navi development is either done or in the final development I don't see RT hardware acceleration being in Navi.
     
  2. SpaceBeer

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2017
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    The Balkans
    Since AMD has already implemeted RT acceleration in ProRender, and will have something similar in Vulkan and DirectX, I can only expect Navi will be even better for such tasks

    https://gpuopen.com/announcing-real-time-ray-tracing/


    And in my opinion, RT is much more important in CAD, than in games. Maybe because I spend much more time in CAD software than playing games :d
     
    Lightman likes this.
  3. McHuj

    Veteran Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,563
    Likes Received:
    758
    Location:
    Texas
    It was a surprise to consumers, I don’t believe it was a surprise in the hardware industry. While AMD may not have know NVIDIA’s plans directly, I’m sure they were aware of Microsoft’s plans to introduce DXR months if not years before they announced it.

    I think RT is something MS will want for their next console and DXR is an early step to get developers to start thinking about it and developing prototypes around it.
     
  4. CarstenS

    Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,943
    Likes Received:
    2,286
    Location:
    Germany
    Questions remain though: Was this in the making when AMD finalized the base architecture for Navi? Did AMD see this as a long term primer for future consoles and developers or did they actually integrate circuits into their hardware apart from larger caches that significantly speed up RT? I don't see anything conclusive in either direction, yay or nay.
     
  5. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
    Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    9,136
    Likes Received:
    3,031
    Location:
    Finland
    It hasn't been a surprise since Microsoft announced DXR and Microsoft announcing DXR definitely wasn't a surprise for any big graphics company - I don't think anything ever has been added to DX without all the big players input
     
    Lightman likes this.
  6. Magnum_Force

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2008
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    70
    Just thinking out loud, but could any of the patents which were mentioned in B3D in the Vega speculation thread regard variable length simd or a beefed up scalar core help with ray tracing?
     
  7. Ike Turner

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,986
    Likes Received:
    2,030
    The narrative that AMD was caught by surprise is ridiculous. Will they implement something similar to Nvidia's RT cores (which technically aren't even "cores"..) ? Maybe or maybe not. But just like Nvidia & Intel they have being working on GPU accelerate Ray-Tracing for Real-Time and Offline rendering for a while now (fully open-source and cross OS/HW compatible..). Radeon FireRays (now called Radeon Rays) was announced/released 3 years ago. Microsoft didn't create DXR without AMD's input.

    Edit: But the two things that AMD doesn't have are the R&D money that Nvidia has and more importantly the shit-ton of researchers specialized in ray tracing that Nvidia has hired in the past 10 years..
     
    #627 Ike Turner, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  8. SpaceBeer

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2017
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    The Balkans
    I agree. But also, if MS and/or Sony want to have some features in their console chips, then R&D is less of an issue.
     
  9. Alexko

    Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    4,515
    Likes Received:
    934
    One would indeed expect at least Microsoft to lean towards AMD for the next Xbox, and to be interested in accelerating DXR. And Sony probably wouldn't want to be left out of that, though they might not want to jointly fund something with MS.
     
  10. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
    Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    9,136
    Likes Received:
    3,031
    Location:
    Finland
    Lisa Su practically confirmed already that they're in both next gen consoles
     
    Heinrich4, Lightman and Alexko like this.
  11. Rootax

    Veteran Newcomer

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,518
    Likes Received:
    878
    Location:
    France
    " caught by surprise" is not about RT, it's about dedicated HW (RT + tensor cores) helping that. But right now, my question is, can AMD execute what they're planning, or will they be late / a generation behind again. On paper Vega was nice. In real life, it's a big polaris... (where a you primitive shaders / NGG). Which is not bad in a vacuum, but can't beat "old" Pascal.

    But it's a bad start with Navi IMO, in a sense it's not even there yet, and won't be for months. nVidia is alone, again...
     
    A1xLLcqAgt0qc2RyMz0y likes this.
  12. Samwell

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    154
    Without their input of course not, but it still might be too late for them to add hardware stuff in navi. There're a few indications which tend me to believe that DXR was mostly pushed by nvidia or they might have even used a mantle approach and finished the api first and later gave it to MS for changes. This way it might be that AMD just got involved too late for architecture changes for navi (early 2017).
    Why i'm thinking that?
    1. I heard DXR has very big similarities with Nvidia Optix
    2. Nvs Vulkan extension which they proposed for inserting into the api is also very similar to optix and DXR.

    Of course it might be, that this is just the "optimal" approach for an api, but i can't really believe that.
     
  13. Alexko

    Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    4,515
    Likes Received:
    934
    Do you have a link to that? Thanks! :)
     
  14. Ike Turner

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,986
    Likes Received:
    2,030
    Alexko likes this.
  15. ToTTenTranz

    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,078
    Likes Received:
    5,628
    I've been using ProRender on Solidworks for over a year, and I must say it was a life saver to get stuff done on time.
     
  16. SpaceBeer

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2017
    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    The Balkans
    Imagination had fully functional chip with dedicated logic for ray-tracing 3 years ago. Even Intel's Larrabee had its own RT design 10 years ago. So MS could have asked them to put it in next gen console even before current one was released.

    Wheter we see it in Navi or not, I'm sure AMD has something similar at least on paper if not in the lab. The question is - is this the time to put it on expensive silicon, when you know it won't be utilized for most of the time?

    Regarding DXR, from what I read, it will be available for all current DX12 hardware. Though RTX will probably have way better performance than anything else. But it is important that even with older cards, developers are able to implement RT in games, knowing that when the game is released, gamers will have cards that can actually run it in real time.
     
    Heinrich4 and BRiT like this.
  17. A1xLLcqAgt0qc2RyMz0y

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    1,133
    Real Time RT was a surprise to the industry as they did not expect to see that in hardware for at least 3-5 years from now.

    So again with that reality AMD would have to have been positioning themselves to that same time frame.
     
    #637 A1xLLcqAgt0qc2RyMz0y, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  18. A1xLLcqAgt0qc2RyMz0y

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    1,133
    GPU architectural designs take 3+ years to develop.

    Microsoft announced DXR only 6 months ago.

    So that starts the clock for AMD.

    Nvidia is the biggest player by far and you should be aware that there is a fallback position in DXR to run on all GPUs even if they lack hardware accelerated RT.

    And because of that fallback position in DXR AMD probably became aware that Nvidia was going to have some kind of RT hardware acceleration soon. Again that takes 3+ years to implement thus the 2.5 year gap for AMD.
     
    #638 A1xLLcqAgt0qc2RyMz0y, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  19. Lightman

    Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,822
    Likes Received:
    494
    Location:
    Torquay, UK
    Why do you assumie AMD wasn't privileged to informations on upcoming DXR extension from Microsoft prior to its official unveiling?
    This is not how industry standards are born, companies are involved way earlier than any official announcment is made. Obviously knowing and acting on that knowledge are two different things, so I fully expect Navi to support DXR via universal INT/FP units with added functionality but I would like to be proven wrong.
     
    Cat Merc and BRiT like this.
  20. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
    Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    9,136
    Likes Received:
    3,031
    Location:
    Finland
    No, that starts the clock for public. 3rd party devs had already working demos ready so they knew and had the spec quite a bit earlier than that. AMD is developing DirectX with Microsoft, just like NVIDIA, Intel, Qualcomm, you name it - if anything AMD is even closer to MS than the rest due to console connections.
    AMD most likely knew about DXR before there was a single line of code written at MS regarding it.
     
    Cat Merc and BRiT like this.
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...