Alternative distribution to optical disks : SSD, cards, and download*

[manux]

Oups, I was out of the loop for a long time, but it seems they can now run self-signed code on the hard-drive. This is still not a flaw in bluray, but a flaw in the PS3 hypervisor (once you can run code, it's over). You still can't "copy" a bluray game disk, each one needs to be cracked and patched individually. The PS3 code-signing is what was compromised, it has nothing to do with the physical media, that hack would have compromised any media security, including hardware dongles, and carts. The reverse situation isn't true, however. If the physical media was cracked (which is what we're talking about), it would allow replicating disks without having to crack the code-signing. So the bluray security layer is still doing what it's supposed to do, you can't make exact copies, and your code can detect it.

Where do you read that? Or are you meaning the old firmwares? I have been semi watching what's happening in ps3 hacking scene and those "I can run code on ps3" proved out to be lies so far.

AFAIK. this is the status and there is absolutely no running custom code on latest firmwares: http://ps3.dashhacks.com/2012/01/19/kakarotos-jailbreak-status-update

 

[MrFox]

Where do you read that? Or are you meaning the old firmwares? I have been semi watching what's happening in ps3 hacking scene and those "I can run code on ps3" proved out to be lies so far.

AFAIK. this is the status and there is absolutely no running custom code on latest firmwares: http://ps3.dashhacks.com/2012/01/19/kakarotos-jailbreak-status-update

Thanks, that good to know. I just googled to see what's up... I guess I was a victim of "someone said so on the internet, so it must be true."

I'm amazed that they can still keep it closed after 5 years, despite the code-signing being partially compromised, it has to be a record in the history of consoles or something. Compared with Apple, they come out with a new hardware and it's jailbroken within 24 hours, every single time. It's a record in the opposite direction.

 

[manux]

Thanks, that good to know. I just googled to see what's up... I guess I was a victim of "someone said so on the internet, so it must be true."

I'm amazed that they can still keep it closed after 5 years, despite the code-signing being partially compromised, it has to be a record in the history of consoles or something. Compared with Apple, they come out with a new hardware and it's jailbroken within 24 hours, every single time. It's a record in the opposite direction.

Yeah, I wonder how in the hell sony was able pull this rabbit out of the hat. Definitely impressive feat of unhacking from sony and world's first at that probably.

 

[Acert93]

In 2011 GE was said to have made some major breakthroughs in Holographic disk technology and looking to license and partner with others. I don't think it will be available next gen but it was curious to read how they were not only were targeting archiving but also, "onsumer entertainment systems". iirc InPhase and Nintendo had had an agreement at some point. Again, I don't think it will be in next gen but it seems they are at least as fast, hold 500GB, can read and write, and read CD/DVD/Blu Ray. Obviously there are skeptics about it ever coming to market and price, at least in InPhase's case, was exorbitant. But if they can get the read speeds up (in theory the higher density should help if they can manage reading all the content). InPhase was claiming 80MB read and 20MB write speeds (MB, not Mb) so it is a curious tech.

 

[MrFox]

In 2011 GE was said to have made some major breakthroughs in Holographic disk technology and looking to license and partner with others. I don't think it will be available next gen but it was curious to read how they were not only were targeting archiving but also, "onsumer entertainment systems". iirc InPhase and Nintendo had had an agreement at some point. Again, I don't think it will be in next gen but it seems they are at least as fast, hold 500GB, can read and write, and read CD/DVD/Blu Ray. Obviously there are skeptics about it ever coming to market and price, at least in InPhase's case, was exorbitant. But if they can get the read speeds up (in theory the higher density should help if they can manage reading all the content). InPhase was claiming 80MB read and 20MB write speeds (MB, not Mb) so it is a curious tech.

Where the holographic technology can be really interesting is their claim of using it with non-disk spinning version, a moving head on a flat square, basically. THAT could be very cool in the future. Crystal Cubes like in the movies

 

[eastmen]

In 2011 GE was said to have made some major breakthroughs in Holographic disk technology and looking to license and partner with others. I don't think it will be available next gen but it was curious to read how they were not only were targeting archiving but also, "onsumer entertainment systems". iirc InPhase and Nintendo had had an agreement at some point. Again, I don't think it will be in next gen but it seems they are at least as fast, hold 500GB, can read and write, and read CD/DVD/Blu Ray. Obviously there are skeptics about it ever coming to market and price, at least in InPhase's case, was exorbitant. But if they can get the read speeds up (in theory the higher density should help if they can manage reading all the content). InPhase was claiming 80MB read and 20MB write speeds (MB, not Mb) so it is a curious tech.

Well if GE wants to be the winner of the next gen storage war , we all learned from sony to just shove it into a console and pay for studio support.

So if GE wants to do it , they could certianly subsidise the price of the drives and discs until they start making money off it

 

[-tkf-]

Well if GE wants to be the winner of the next gen storage war , we all learned from sony to just shove it into a console and pay for studio support.

So if GE wants to do it , they could certianly subsidise the price of the drives and discs until they start making money off it

Or do something even smarter, even though it on paper doesn't stand a chance, doesn't have the backing of "anyone" except themselves, use Microsoft money and try to buy studio support, just to annoy Panasonic and Sony! Your disdain for Sony really has a tendency to derail the discussions, and when you make a point which is then proven false you never ever comment on it, as if the discussion never happened, you have good points in this discussion, i just don't see why your blind hate absolutely has to cloud them all up and take away the focus.

Topic: Isn't there any "new" optical media that focuses on seek time? I thought about making a disc where there data is read via a laser that isn´t on a sled, but is focused via a mirror to the disc, first and foremost making the "sled" with the optics alot lighter, and therefor faster, and if possible make it so that the disc can be read with the laser at "angles" so the sled can cover a larger area from one spot than just directly over it. I know, fantasy, but hey, cutting the seek time would really help

 

[Platon]

Topic: Isn't there any "new" optical media that focuses on seek time? I thought about making a disc where there data is read via a laser that isn´t on a sled, but is focused via a mirror to the disc, first and foremost making the "sled" with the optics alot lighter, and therefor faster, and if possible make it so that the disc can be read with the laser at "angles" so the sled can cover a larger area from one spot than just directly over it. I know, fantasy, but hey, cutting the seek time would really help

That is what is used in so called laser scanning microscopes (more my field than electronics). Where you use a laser beam which you focus on your specimen with a lens and with a mirror you change its position to do an xy scan of you object (like good old tv beams) to illuminate it and get your picture.

The problem would be that you would most likely need to be at a considerable distance to be able to "scan" the whole disc and not basically be by its surface like now, but yes most likely it would give much faster seek times like that.

I was thinking though something along those line but use instead what we have in so called spinning disc confocal microscopes. There you take that one laser beam and split it into to thousands of beams through a fast spinning pinhole, all focused which illuminate all of your sample at the same time. I was thinking that would be a cool way to read a disc, then you would be having all its data almost all the time available at what ever time point, but the distance part would still be a problem. Hmm, maybe is should patent that:smile:...

 

[eastmen]

Or do something even smarter, even though it on paper doesn't stand a chance, doesn't have the backing of "anyone" except themselves, use Microsoft money and try to buy studio support, just to annoy Panasonic and Sony! Your disdain for Sony really has a tendency to derail the discussions, and when you make a point which is then proven false you never ever comment on it, as if the discussion never happened, you have good points in this discussion, i just don't see why your blind hate absolutely has to cloud them all up and take away the focus.

Why doesn't it stand a chance on paper ? It clearly out matches bluray. And alot of current bluray hardware wont be able to play even the tripple layer discs . So people will have to buy new hardware to go any further with Bluray. IF Holographic discs offer advantages over Blruay then why wouldn't we be all for it . Its also not the first time one group would create a competing product . Why should we be happy with a single format . We have diffrent tablet and phone makers , diffrent flash makers. Why not diffrent optical format makers. Why must the industry rally behind a single one ?

Topic: Isn't there any "new" optical media that focuses on seek time? I thought about making a disc where there data is read via a laser that isn´t on a sled, but is focused via a mirror to the disc, first and foremost making the "sled" with the optics alot lighter, and therefor faster, and if possible make it so that the disc can be read with the laser at "angles" so the sled can cover a larger area from one spot than just directly over it. I know, fantasy, but hey, cutting the seek time would really help

There used to be a CD drive back in the day called truespeed or something like that. It used two lasers I believe to give steadier read times. IT was the best cd drive out in the day.

I'd flip that around however and think about a slot loaded disc that had the info on both sides and the top and bottom both having a laser to read them. You should be able to get twice the data transfered.

 

[-tkf-]

That is what is used in so called laser scanning microscopes (more my field than electronics). Where you use a laser beam which you focus on your specimen with a lens and with a mirror you change its position to do an xy scan of you object (like good old tv beams) to illuminate it and get your picture.

The problem would be that you would most likely need to be at a considerable distance to be able to "scan" the whole disc and not basically be by its surface like now, but yes most likely it would give much faster seek times like that.

I was thinking though something along those line but use instead what we have in so called spinning disc confocal microscopes. There you take that one laser beam and split it into to thousands of beams through a fast spinning pinhole, all focused which illuminate all of your sample at the same time. I was thinking that would be a cool way to read a disc, then you would be having all its data almost all the time available at what ever time point, but the distance part would still be a problem. Hmm, maybe is should patent that:smile:...

So in our patent here, maybe we should stop spinging the disc and start spining the mirror/laser instead?

In my original patent i thought about having the laser move as usual, but since it didn´t have to travel the whole disc width to read everything it would still be faster, so i guess it wouldn´t need to be so far away from the disc?

 

[-tkf-]

Why doesn't it stand a chance on paper ? It clearly out matches bluray. And alot of current bluray hardware wont be able to play even the tripple layer discs . So people will have to buy new hardware to go any further with Bluray. IF Holographic discs offer advantages over Blruay then why wouldn't we be all for it . Its also not the first time one group would create a competing product . Why should we be happy with a single format . We have diffrent tablet and phone makers , diffrent flash makers. Why not diffrent optical format makers. Why must the industry rally behind a single one ?

There used to be a CD drive back in the day called truespeed or something like that. It used two lasers I believe to give steadier read times. IT was the best cd drive out in the day.

I'd flip that around however and think about a slot loaded disc that had the info on both sides and the top and bottom both having a laser to read them. You should be able to get twice the data transfered.

I am the Optical fan boy around here, whatever that would outmatch Blu-Ray would have me in the corner supporting it, but i doubt anyone from the movie industry would.

In Console relations there is a Blu-Ray standard that imho may not be enough, yes i am not sure that 50GB is enough for the next generation, a game that comes out in 2020 with only 50GB?. In the case of Sony it would be fairly "easy" for them to make sure that the PS4 can read 4 layer discs and maybe even the +33% format that was suggested.

I thought about the Truespeed drive myself.. more lasers!

 

[eastmen]

the question remains , are the lower layers going to be slower for reading and have worse seek times ?

Trust me i'd love to have 500 gig bluray discs for gaming but A) I doubt costs wouldbe reasonable to fill the discs up with unique content and B) I doubt the speeds will be high enough the lower down you go in layers.


By 2020 broad band penetration may be far enough along that retail copys don't even get released.



My point remains. If people need to switch over to quad layer and greater bluray players anyway , then there is a chance for a new format to take shape. If HVD is going to start at 500 gigs and if its read speeds are better than bluray why wouldn't we want to move to the new format ?

 

[AlphaWolf]

There's not really a pressing need for 500GB, but a smaller form factor non spinning holographic media disc with useful seek times would be awesome. There's been some credit card sized 50GB holographic media shown in the past. It's a pipe dream for next gen, but I also doubt blu-ray has a shelf life much beyond 2020.

 

[-tkf-]

the question remains , are the lower layers going to be slower for reading and have worse seek times ?

Trust me i'd love to have 500 gig bluray discs for gaming but A) I doubt costs wouldbe reasonable to fill the discs up with unique content and B) I doubt the speeds will be high enough the lower down you go in layers.

By 2020 broad band penetration may be far enough along that retail copys don't even get released.

My point remains. If people need to switch over to quad layer and greater bluray players anyway , then there is a chance for a new format to take shape. If HVD is going to start at 500 gigs and if its read speeds are better than bluray why wouldn't we want to move to the new format ?

As i have said a few times, optical in the next gen is not the bottleneck, Harddrives is. Anything that needs to be streamed that the Optical drive can´t deliver will be on the harddrive, anything secondary, like FMV etc will stay on the optical. So i would not worry that much about layer change, and even games that still stream from optical would know when that layer change is needed. The smart thing about Blu-Ray in this case would be that if there is a need for more storage, you add a layer if the pros and cons balance out.

As for movies, seek time, read speed should not be a problem at all, and since 4K is most likely to be a niche market to begin with any format could work for that. But if Sony is going to carry the technical torch yet again i am pretty sure they will do it with Blu-Ray, and it makes sense, the production lines are there, the tech is well known and it plays old school bluray. HVD or whatever, would really have to come up with something special to compete.

 

[MrFox]

the question remains , are the lower layers going to be slower for reading and have worse seek times ?

Trust me i'd love to have 500 gig bluray discs for gaming but A) I doubt costs wouldbe reasonable to fill the discs up with unique content and B) I doubt the speeds will be high enough the lower down you go in layers.


By 2020 broad band penetration may be far enough along that retail copys don't even get released.



My point remains. If people need to switch over to quad layer and greater bluray players anyway , then there is a chance for a new format to take shape. If HVD is going to start at 500 gigs and if its read speeds are better than bluray why wouldn't we want to move to the new format ?

BR optical pickups coming out in 2012 can do four layers deep at 16x, which is 72MB/s. Pickups are improved with a better laser, higher gain and lower noise every year, and the new disk dye with higher transparency can have 16 layers. We went from 1x BR drives in 2006, to 16x drives today, and still improving, once they reach 32x (144MB/s) they can do Multi-beam to go even higher. Considering their pace, we can expect if the PS4 comes out in 2013 or 2014, they can easily have an extremely low cost 72MB/s with 400GB disks, with the possibility of reading higher capacities with a firmware upgrade.

On the other hand, I have been waiting for HVD for the last 10 year... expecting it the next year... and the next... they simply missed the window of opportunity. Nobody in the industry want a format war, except those who want all formats to die.

 

[Acert93]

Do you have any links to back up your 16x in 2012 and 32x 144MB/s BDR claims. Also, how loud are those going to be?

 

[AlNom]

Are those discs even going to survive being spun for extended periods?

 

[MrFox]

I don't claim 32x and Multibeam are currently planned, I haven't seen it mentioned on any roadmap. But it's expectation based on how quick we're progressing, and history of what happened with CD pickups and DVD pickups. I do hope they never go beyond 16x and do multibeam instead.

16x is what I saw on a roadmap last year, they claimed 72MB/s, I'll try to find the link. No idea if it's out yet, the article was about the problem of laser power, but that's for writing. ROM is much less of an issue, which is the basis of my expectation of a low cost drive for PS4.

 

[MrFox]

I'm officially full of crap, and will gladly accept being ridiculed in the future.

It's DVD which is capped at 16x read-speed on all layers, and bluray is still capped at 12x read-speed in the foreseeable future, no matter how many layers. I do not understand why the WRITE speed can keep getting higher than the read speed (dvd), but I gave up trying to figure it out.

EDIT: BDXL specifically has better specs than BD. Both DVD-DL and DL-bluray are slower than SL because the dye is not transparent enough. Proof to this is that the Pioneer drive has full 12x speed both read and write on a 128GB 4-layers BDXL, but only 8x on a 50GB BR. I think it's safe to expect the 16 layers 400GB to have the same read speed as BDXL, which would be at least 12x (54MB/s).

 

[Acert93]

I'm officially full of crap

You're human, right? Officially all current human models are full of crap, except when they vacate at which time things get really @#$@#. Welcome to the club

It would not be the first time any of us has remembered something wrong, thanks for clarifying. Especially after another poster said there were 16x BDR so that nicely clarifies the situation. Thanks! :smile:

Anyone know the additional cost of adding additional lasers to Blu Ray? I know the diodes are not cheap and I guess the tech to add, say, 4 lasers for a 4x thoroughput would not be cheap. And the demand may be low in that you are mainly looking at consoles and PCs to push the tech. I am not sure PCs really would push it much as digital purchasing (iTune, Netflix, Zune, Amazon, Steam, etc) is becoming more and more popular so that leaves the consoles to absorb the cost?