Alternative distribution to optical disks : SSD, cards, and download*

On PS3, it's a two part process... first downloading a package and then probably unpacking/decrypting that for playback.
AFAIK the download remains complete and unchanged when 'installed'. The installation aspect on PS3 is apparently a complete waste of time. But that's not really an issue. It doesn't take too long, especially versus download, and doesn't bare any influence on installing from disk.
 
Well, to a point. For some people the downloads are faster than the install and then it feels unnecessarily long. Also download in the background makes the install a separate action. If they can automate that it would get rid of the most major annoyance.
 
Which is kinda what I said. Only that Steam does more then just download, files are compressed and possibly encrypted - and they get processed instantly (and then often packed into gcf files) instead of waiting for the whole download to finish first.
Same thing as any installer really, just not a 2 step process.

That GCF stuff was (and was is here a big point, as L4D1/2 don't use it anymore) used for Valves own games. Most third party stuff (which is the majority on Steam) don't use GCF at all. You do have the ncf files, which are just "here is the game and those files are included" metadata files. You can go in and delete a file in your steamapps/common folder and reload exactly that file again. No overhead no nothing... And the GCF files were nothing more than Dooms WAD files anyways. Just a package for the gamedata.

AFAIK the download remains complete and unchanged when 'installed'. The installation aspect on PS3 is apparently a complete waste of time. But that's not really an issue. It doesn't take too long, especially versus download, and doesn't bare any influence on installing from disk.

Really? Then why do it? What's the deal with it? Is it an integrity check? Why do I need additional space for "installing" a game, then? That really doesn't make sense at all. Now... I am not saying you aren't correct, I just can't believe it. It just doesn't make sense at all for Sony to have this then, if it doesn't server a purpose and isn't of some vital use.




Say, from a usability/enduser perspective, Sony made several vital mistakes here, too. Not just that the additional step required is bad and takes a long time, especially for bigger packages, the navigation and options of the online store are abysmal in contrast to other stores (and I am not limiting to consoles only here). It's pretty hard to navigate, it has little options for search, it's slow and cumbersome, it misses VITAL information (with 99% of all download you cannot see how big the download itself is, unless you actually start the download), in several cases it "limites" dlc to certain regions ("to use this dlc you need SLES2148908" ... makes NO sense at all to limit it like they do) and a lot of other thigns... it's just unusuable.


And that's my take on why it won't be a "online only" console, at least from Sony. Their current state is... unbearable. And trying to sell a next console when your current state is THAT broken, it can never be successful, unless your new system is the ultimate solution to all those problems.
 
There is NO installation with Steam (unless you count installing Steam itself or starting a download). The download IS the installation.

Installing Direct X, on pretty much every game, so annoying.


TSony made several vital mistakes here, too. Not just that the additional step required is bad and takes a long time, especially for bigger packages, the navigation and options of the online store are abysmal in contrast to other stores (and I am not limiting to consoles only here). It's pretty hard to navigate, it has little options for search, it's slow and cumbersome, it misses VITAL information (with 99% of all download you cannot see how big the download itself is, unless you actually start the download), in several cases it "limites" dlc to certain regions ("to use this dlc you need SLES2148908" ... makes NO sense at all to limit it like they do) and a lot of other thigns... it's just unusuable.

Sony has every chance to improve on their store, unless they are completely and utterly stupid they will.
Just having the Plus service takes away most of the pain of patches. The store in itself is something that worked perfectly when the supply was limited and now that design just isn´t good enough. However, it kind a works and i can personally find the stuff i need, but it could easily be better and faster.

The DLC thing is something that shouldn´t be a problem unless you buy your games outside your region and then downloads DLC´s from your region, that is just Sony making sure you don´t get burned, unless i am mistaken of course.

I think the stupid install part is something that should be easy to fix, and will be fixed as well, it´s another example of building their first online console store without really thinking about the consequences 5 years later.

All the examples used on games that streamline the install so you can play while downloading/installing are totally valid, in the case of WOW it´s really needed since the download speed can be somewhat slow :) But is it worth the development time to build a complete game around cutting down on the install time unless you really have an exceptionally good reason, like wow does? The "level" based games may be able to do it easier since the can just cache the files to the Harddrive the first time you use it, but games that rely on streaming or constantly reads data might require more time and money to make it work. Again, i would much rather have Sony/Microsoft focus on speeding up any install, partial or complete in any which way they can, and save the money and time from the developers so they could focus on the games.
 
Thing is... define region. I usually import half my games from the UK, as in Germany, a lot of games get cut (because of our f'ing youth protection laws) or because they cost less than half as they do here. That's still PAL and with some (not all, mind you) games, it doesn't work, when it should, because it's the same game with different language strings and different audio dubbing (if that... in many cases it's PAL5 anyways). It could work... but because the serial number of the game is different, I don't know (the same is true for savegames, too, though that isn't THAT much of a problem and was already an issue on PS2, too).

With the store stuff... yes, Sony could've fixed it. But they SHOULD've fixed it a WHILE ago. The searching issue was always there... no options to include or exclude stuff, no sorting... that's pretty basic stuff, mind you. The same goes to displaying information in a good fashion. If I want to buy something, I want to know the size, too... I used to go online on a pretty bad connection up until recently, which prevented me from downloading pretty much everything, but smaller stuff... but I couldn't tell if demo X or update Y was 10mb or 25GB before I actually started downloading said files.

And installing DX... somewhere in Valves forum, some Valve guy explained why they need to install DX for every game individually (it boils down to different minor versions of DX etc.). But you can't compare THAT to 10 minute installations of games on PS3. Or even more (LA Noire with its 23 or whatever Gigabytes will take a LONG while on that original slow ass drive).


Imho, there's sooooo many small things on PS3 that make me not want to play it anymore. It's never a big showstopper, but all the barriers of me actually being able to start a game. Installing it, patching it, taking FOREVER to start etc... and that's not even touching the issue of "I download game a... installing it... oh it needs a patch that is the size of the game again (probably is the full game again with an updated elf)... and then it has ANOTHER patch". That's INEXCUSABLE. Why not provide the CURRENT download? Steam does that! It's not sorcery to give the player the files he actually needs, instead of old ones that need an upgrade anyways. It even adds cost to Sony, as traffic isn't free, by any means, either.

Couple that with games that take over an hour to install (GT5), which also need updates to total up to several gigabytes by now, probably... it's a mess.Now, I don't mind patches per se, but the process needs MASSIVE streamlining (not just PSPlus people should get patched automatically, plus smaller patch sizes, as on 360).
 
Thing is... define region. I usually import half my games from the UK, as in Germany, a lot of games get cut (because of our f'ing youth protection laws) or because they cost less than half as they do here. That's still PAL and with some (not all, mind you) games, it doesn't work, when it should, because it's the same game with different language strings and different audio dubbing (if that... in many cases it's PAL5 anyways). It could work... but because the serial number of the game is different, I don't know (the same is true for savegames, too, though that isn't THAT much of a problem and was already an issue on PS2, too).

Sorry but you created this problem yourself, and Sony even provides the info and the warnings about what DLC´s that work and that doesn´t work. Complain to someone else about that problem.

With the store stuff... yes, Sony could've fixed it. But they SHOULD've fixed it a WHILE ago. The searching issue was always there... no options to include or exclude stuff, no sorting... that's pretty basic stuff, mind you. The same goes to displaying information in a good fashion. If I want to buy something, I want to know the size, too... I used to go online on a pretty bad connection up until recently, which prevented me from downloading pretty much everything, but smaller stuff... but I couldn't tell if demo X or update Y was 10mb or 25GB before I actually started downloading said files.

And installing DX... somewhere in Valves forum, some Valve guy explained why they need to install DX for every game individually (it boils down to different minor versions of DX etc.). But you can't compare THAT to 10 minute installations of games on PS3. Or even more (LA Noire with its 23 or whatever Gigabytes will take a LONG while on that original slow ass drive).

I am not comparing, i am just pointing out that Steam is NOT perfect either, and i think i made it pretty clear that i don´t find Sony´s Blu-Ray installs/patches future proof, but i doubt they will invest the needed money to change all that, i can imagine that it would be a big job.

Imho, there's sooooo many small things on PS3 that make me not want to play it anymore. It's never a big showstopper, but all the barriers of me actually being able to start a game. Installing it, patching it, taking FOREVER to start etc... and that's not even touching the issue of "I download game a... installing it... oh it needs a patch that is the size of the game again (probably is the full game again with an updated elf)... and then it has ANOTHER patch". That's INEXCUSABLE. Why not provide the CURRENT download? Steam does that! It's not sorcery to give the player the files he actually needs, instead of old ones that need an upgrade anyways. It even adds cost to Sony, as traffic isn't free, by any means, either.

Couple that with games that take over an hour to install (GT5), which also need updates to total up to several gigabytes by now, probably... it's a mess.Now, I don't mind patches per se, but the process needs MASSIVE streamlining (not just PSPlus people should get patched automatically, plus smaller patch sizes, as on 360).

The games i play are updated over night, i know that those of my friends that fire up the PS3 after a few months of stand still are just as annoyed as you, however unless you want to play online you can skip the updates afaik. Anyway, where are you going with your rants, i kind lost track :)
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Which still leaves us with load times potentially in the several minutes range. Non-volatile storage would solve the load times and the transfer rates.

Until you change the disc you're playing, at which point you're back to square one in either case. I switch discs in my PS3 far more often than I power it down. In my case, the only advantage of non-volatile cache would be when the system locks up and I have to do a hard reboot.
 
Until you change the disc you're playing, at which point you're back to square one in either case. I switch discs in my PS3 far more often than I power it down. In my case, the only advantage of non-volatile cache would be when the system locks up and I have to do a hard reboot.

There is no reason why the ssd couldn't hold decent amount of game caches/installations. Assume for example max cache size of 4GB and ssd size of 32-64GB. All game data does not need to be in fast memory.
 
you guys are just adding more and more to the cost of the system.

Flash carts for gaming is going to be the smart choice, Its the only choice that reduces the actual cost of console production and the added costs per game can be absorbed by the consumers.
 
Sorry but you created this problem yourself.
True... if I didn't import there would be no problem at all...

I am not comparing, i am just pointing out that Steam is NOT perfect either...

Sure. My Steam list is starting to get cluttered just as badly. But it has soo many advantages compared to PSN. And it's not the advantage in resolution or mouse controls. Or rather not just those things.

The games i play are updated over night, i know that those of my friends that fire up the PS3 after a few months of stand still are just as annoyed as you, however unless you want to play online you can skip the updates afaik. Anyway, where are you going with your rants, i kind lost track :)

Oh... I am sorry. I was a bit stressed the last few weeks... I tend to start to rant a bit then. I need holidays^^
 
you guys are just adding more and more to the cost of the system.

Flash carts for gaming is going to be the smart choice, Its the only choice that reduces the actual cost of console production and the added costs per game can be absorbed by the consumers.

$70+ games + no used (budget) games market = fail.

Also, say goodbye to the "platinum hits" $20 games as well.

Cards would be a nice OPTION next to optical discs, but that expensive option with all it entails would be a disaster if mandated.

This would be handing the generation over to Sony on a silver platter (I'm sure some here would be thrilled with the notion though :p) .
 
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when people sell their old games and buy new ones.
When you buy a new game on launch day for $60, play through it and sell it back to store 2 months later:
1) how much you'll get back for it?
2) at what price will the store resell it?

I'd guess the two numbers differ by more than 3x. That doesn't really help all that much with buying another new game.
 
When you buy a new game on launch day for $60, play through it and sell it back to store 2 months later:
1) how much you'll get back for it?
2) at what price will the store resell it?

I'd guess the two numbers differ by more than 3x. That doesn't really help all that much with buying another new game.

Typically you get back $25 if sold back in a month or two (if the title is still selling strong).

That DOES translate to increased sales as that buyer only needs $35 (instead of $60) for a new game then. I know multiple people that do this on a regular basis. Constantly buying new when it comes out, play it for a few weeks, beat it and take it back to buy the next new game.
 
That DOES translate to increased sales as that buyer only needs $35 (instead of $60) for a new game then
But someone still has to buy that used game as well and that's 100% loss for the publisher/dev. How many of those used-game buyers would completely stop buying them if they wouldn't be able to do it any more? Sure, they might not buy as many but they will still buy something.
 
after you play game a-b-c-b-c-a-a-c-b ? Non volatile memory works only so far.

Well, the idea is to mask the load time during gameplay. But even after game a-b-c-b-c-a-a-c-b, it would still be faster with buffer than not. Initial load will likely always be there, but as long as subsequent load is fast, I am alright with that. Like GT5 for example, the loading even after patch really kill that game for me. If PS3 has 8 GB RAM with 1-3 GB/s bandwidth to mask loadtime, I'm sure GT5 could be alot more snappy. Instead of load here, load there arrgghh I hate loading in that game.
 
Until you change the disc you're playing, at which point you're back to square one in either case. I switch discs in my PS3 far more often than I power it down. In my case, the only advantage of non-volatile cache would be when the system locks up and I have to do a hard reboot.
Are you representative of the majority though? I expect, though hace no research to support this, that most people by far switch on and off their consoles as they do their other CE devices. There have even been campaigns in recent years in the UK to get people to switch off instead of just standby on their TV and things. I don't think sleep mode is commonplace for anything other than notebooks and touchees*. Instructions to leave your console on would go unheaded/unappreciated I reckon. IMO the best option is enough local storage to cache numerous titles, and manux says.

* Touchees - an experiment in finding a name to cover tablet and smartphone devices.
 
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