Alternative distribution to optical disks : SSD, cards, and download*

[eastmen]

PC has a longer and more pronounced history of pirated games.

And on consoles its non-existent compared to what it used to be (which was never as much as PC).

Pirated games existed almost from the beginning of consoles. I had cloned intelivision and Atari games , clone Gameboy games and so on. Consoles being a closed box have a better chance at eradicating piracy

I believe the ps4 is vunerable to the same webkit hack that the vita is. I don't know if allows for illegal games to be played. I haven't really looked into it

 

[MrFox]

There is no known vulnerabilities for PS4 that enables playing pirated games.

Any PC can download a torrent and click start.

My comment is about widespread piracy. Today. Not your cousin's half-sister's great grand father nephew who mod-chipped a console once.

 

[eastmen]

There is no known vulnerabilities for PS4 that enables playing pirated games.

Any PC can download a torrent and click start.

My comment is about widespread piracy. Today. Not your cousin's half-sister's great grand father nephew who mod-chipped a console once.

oh well that's easy today ou can buy an xbox 360 and play pirated games. As I said at thestart

 

[MrFox]

I'll rephrase: piracy isn't widespread on any console using a bluray disc.

 

[eastmen]

I'll rephrase: piracy isn't widespread on any console using a bluray disc.

Well the ps3 had its jail break drive that allowed people to make copies of games and play them. After that CFW came out for it that allowed you to play pirated games

 

[London Geezer]

You said piracy was widespread. It isn't. The end. Please. Stop.

 

[Lalaland]

You know I find myself wondering if BD media in and of itself is not a form of anti-piracy protection. BD-R disks are rare, BD-R drives are pricier still and the shift to digital for audio and video piracy means that the market for blank BD media is a rounding error relative to the blank CD/DVD market (even now).

 

[MrFox]

In packs of 100, the 25GB BD-R are below $1 each, and the 50GB are $2 each. If it was possible to write games, bootlegs would be widespread.

The real reason BD anti-piracy works is the analog BD-Mark which was designed into bluray from the start. It held incredibly well over the years. Since there's no way to write it, the only way to pirate is to hack the hypervisor of the console. This is completely different from the previous CD/DVD formats that were pirated quickly, specially the dreamcast which had no protection whatsoever. PS1 had a simple color filter on the disc, easily bypassed too.

If the hypervisor is easily compromised, or the platform was not protected from the start, there are no other solution against piracy than screwing over the legitimate customers with aggressive online DRM... which is exactly what happened on PC.

The reason consoles still offer control and ownership is the existence of bluray on a protected platform. We went through all of the other ideas for many years. The compromise we have today (universal access to both DD and disc with day1 digital releases) is the only reasonable solution to satisfy all consumers, all studios, and all platform manufacturers. This is the "everybody wins" situation.

The reason console DD is so gimped in terms of flexibility (sharing, lending, borrowing, used games, high price) is because studios want more money per customer and more price control with DD. Exclusive move to DD (proposed by MS) would require a substantial gain to offset the loss of customer base, which market research shows is impossible.

There's no way to satisfy one side without screwing over the other side, it has to be a compromise. The same goes to some gamers who ask for an unencrypted platform, it would screw over the studios even worse than the dreamcast, because we have easy access to torrents now.

 

[eastmen]

You know I find myself wondering if BD media in and of itself is not a form of anti-piracy protection. BD-R disks are rare, BD-R drives are pricier still and the shift to digital for audio and video piracy means that the market for blank BD media is a rounding error relative to the blank CD/DVD market (even now).

BD-R aren't rare anymore you can get 50 blanks for $22 bucks a drive is as low as $40. for $60 you'd be able to copy about 50 games.

I doubt that's the issue.

 

[eastmen]

You said piracy was widespread. It isn't. The end. Please. Stop.

I disagree , FOX just continued moving goal posts. The xbox 360 has been littered with piracy from almost the start. But when that's pointed out oh now lets say systems with bluray.

Its the same bs when he brought up that no one uses flash for games yet we have the vita and 3ds , then he dropped it and moved goal posts to the piracy BS .

Piracy doesn't exist on the PC because of DD systems. Piracy exists because of the open nature of the pc. Piracy isn't absent from bluray consoles because of bluray. There are file dumps of games for the xbox one , ps3 and ps4 and the ps3 was hacked to play games. Sony had to remove features (other os) to stop the hack.

The point of piracy has no baring on DD as the future of consoles.

 

[MrFox]

FOX just continued moving goal posts.

ha... heh.. heh... *gasp wheeze* HAHA HAHAHA HAHAHA !!!!

Spoiler

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There are file dumps of games for the xbox one , ps3 and ps4...

File dumps are meaningless. The disc are unprotected and can be read on any drive. Good luck burning that file to a BRD or copying it to a USB thumbstick and running it on your XB1 or PS4. Which is the complete opposite of PC where one of those illicitly obtained file dumps with a key crack can be found and installed with no effort.

Sony had to remove features (other os) to stop the hack.

The removed Other OS to stop users using it as an attack vector. (George Hotz). The machine was actually pirated because Sony screwed up the security key implementation, some 4+ years after launch. They then patched it and greatly restored the PS3 security so only old FW PS3s can run pirated games. Unless they repeat that mistake on PS4, or similar, PS4 will be solid for years.

In short, consoles piracy is absolutely nothing like as easy or rampant as PC piracy, and PC security can never be as robust as console security beyond DRM systems.

 

[eastmen]

File dumps are meaningless. The disc are unprotected and can be read on any drive. Good luck burning that file to a BRD or copying it to a USB thumbstick and running it on your XB1 or PS4. Which is the complete opposite of PC where one of those illicitly obtained file dumps with a key crack can be found and installed with no effort.
The removed Other OS to stop users using it as an attack vector. (George Hotz). The machine was actually pirated because Sony screwed up the security key implementation, some 4+ years after launch. They then patched it and greatly restored the PS3 security so only old FW PS3s can run pirated games. Unless they repeat that mistake on PS4, or similar, PS4 will be solid for years.

In short, consoles piracy is absolutely nothing like as easy or rampant as PC piracy, and PC security can never be as robust as console security beyond DRM systems.

Yet we are talking about consoles, so once again its just Fox moving goal posts.

Flash nor DD cause Piracy either. The 3ds wasn't hacked because of flash nor was the psvita. The xbox one , ps4 , ps3 , xbox 360 and so on were not hacked because of DD

So it seems that the medium in which games are released has nothing to do with piracy at this point

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yet we are talking about consoles, so once again its just Fox moving goal posts.

Um...you said:

[piracy on console] is going to be about as wide spread as pc piracy at this point.

That's the point I'm arguing regardless what MrFox is up to. Piracy on console isn't as wide spread as PC. It's less than PC because its a lot harder on the machines that have been cracked, and presently impossible on the latest consoles. Piracy on PC is far greater than on console because there are no hardware defences.I'd go so far to say it's always been worse of personal computers than consoles because on consoles you needed to copy the cartridge etc., whereas the earliest computers you just recorded a copy f the audio file. Some consoles like Nintendo's handheld's have had crap security, but overall consoles have been in a completely different league to PCs which is why developers and publishers invested so much in consoles. It was even feared piracy and the early days of the internet would kill PC outright such were the losses, far beyond anything the consoles saw.

Either counter that with something meaningful or retract your idea that consoles are no more secure than PC. Anything else would be moving the goalposts.

 

[MrFox]

I'll be clear as mud, but I'll go back to the original question.

This all started with the price of steam being supposedly lower because it's DD, ignoring that it's competing with multiple tiers. The argument I was going for was: it is in part caused by the easy piracy on PC. Old games in DD format are much more expensive on the still secure consoles. Piracy is essentially the lowest tier, despite being illegal. The price must be low enough to make piracy not worth the trouble for the majority of gamers. It doesn't have to be completely impossible. That difficulty affects (in part, not the only factor) how low the price needs to be for maximum revenue on old games. That tier doesn't exist on console today, therefore a future console being 100% DD wouldn't have any marketing reason to offer such low prices. Both prices and availability become fully controlled by the studio. Think of the Disney vault system for maximising the revenue. They don't have to sell you old games, and old games canibalize the new ones.

 

[Lalaland]

Completely agree, Steam competes both with other vendors and free (piracy) neither are factors in consoles to any great degree so a DD only console is highly unlikely to offer prices as competitive as Steam. I particularly like the Disney Vault comparison if you think about it Nintendo already uses this model with their properties which are still €5-10 despite being older than a considerable number of the people who buy them (or rebuy them, Ninty needs that DeNA account stuff they announced so bad).

 

[eastmen]

Um...you said:
That's the point I'm arguing regardless what MrFox is up to. Piracy on console isn't as wide spread as PC. It's less than PC because its a lot harder on the machines that have been cracked, and presently impossible on the latest consoles. Piracy on PC is far greater than on console because there are no hardware defences.I'd go so far to say it's always been worse of personal computers than consoles because on consoles you needed to copy the cartridge etc., whereas the earliest computers you just recorded a copy f the audio file. Some consoles like Nintendo's handheld's have had crap security, but overall consoles have been in a completely different league to PCs which is why developers and publishers invested so much in consoles. It was even feared piracy and the early days of the internet would kill PC outright such were the losses, far beyond anything the consoles saw.

Either counter that with something meaningful or retract your idea that consoles are no more secure than PC. Anything else would be moving the goalposts.

Okay

Its from 2012

https://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2012/09/22/gaming-piracy-separating-fact-from-fiction

2013
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoo...nally-some-objective-figures-on-games-piracy/

 

[eastmen]

I'll be clear as mud, but I'll go back to the original question.

This all started with the price of steam being supposedly lower because it's DD, ignoring that it's competing with multiple tiers. The argument I was going for was: it is in part caused by the easy piracy on PC. Old games in DD format are much more expensive on the still secure consoles. Piracy is essentially the lowest tier, despite being illegal. The price must be low enough to make piracy not worth the trouble for the majority of gamers. It doesn't have to be completely impossible. That difficulty affects (in part, not the only factor) how low the price needs to be for maximum revenue on old games. That tier doesn't exist on console today, therefore a future console being 100% DD wouldn't have any marketing reason to offer such low prices. Both prices and availability become fully controlled by the studio. Think of the Disney vault system for maximising the revenue. They don't have to sell you old games, and old games canibalize the new ones.

They will still have to compete against other games. Which will regulate price.

Disney has a vault system but the movie releases are in the same ball park of all new releases. They cost me $20 the week they come out with a bluray , dvd and DD of the movie . Its also important to note that the vault only exists for classic Disney animation , Pixar stuff never goes in the vault.

To add a final thought both MS and Sony give away 2 free DD games to subscribers. They both also have a constant stream of games on sale for low prices on their DD market place.

Completely agree, Steam competes both with other vendors and free (piracy) neither are factors in consoles to any great degree so a DD only console is highly unlikely to offer prices as competitive as Steam. I particularly like the Disney Vault comparison if you think about it Nintendo already uses this model with their properties which are still €5-10 despite being older than a considerable number of the people who buy them (or rebuy them, Ninty needs that DeNA account stuff they announced so bad).

Nintendo offers their older titles for $5-10 because they continue to sell them hand over fist.

IF ms went DD only they would still have to offer competitive prices compared to Sony or people would choose the sony console. They would still need to offer a wide range of titles at different prices because that's part of the appeal of consoles, people by the systems in year 6 + because the older games are so cheap.

 

[Lalaland]

Those older titles are cheaper because of market forces out of the control of publishers (secondary markets). DD eliminates secondary markets and returns pricing control to the publishers and the platform holders. I just don't see them volunteering pricing as aggressive as 2nd hand discs on Ebay

 

[Shifty Geezer]

2013
http://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoo...nally-some-objective-figures-on-games-piracy/

"Console games are much harder to pirate than PC versions, as the console hardware needs to be modified."

Your own article says as much! C'mon, just once admit you were wrong! Say your remark PC piracy is no worse than console was a brain fart, or you hadn't had your morning coffee, or something, rather than clinging to it against all reason.