Ah crap, next gen DVD up in the air again

[Crusher]

Unified DVD negotiations fail

I know a lot of you hardcore A/V geeks are all for blu-ray, but there are several reasons I am cheering for HD-DVD right now:

1) Sony
2) Price
3) Sony

I honestly can't remember the last time a Sony proprietary media format benefited the consumer electronics industry. I'm not even sure there has ever been one. Betamax, MiniDisc, MicroMV, Atrac, Memory Stick have all failed, despite most of them being technically superior. I have serious doubts that UMD will have any widespread adoption outside of Sony pictures. And if everything I hear is true, blu-ray DVD players and discs alike will be considerably more expensive than HD-DVDs. Hasn't Sony learned their lesson?

If a blu-ray player/burner costs 50% more than an HD-DVD player/burner, blu-ray movies cost 10-20% more than HD-DVD movies, and blank media costs 100-200% more for blu-ray than HD-DVD, will it really matter to consumers if blu-ray holds 10 GB more per layer? If we were all rich there wouldn't even be a use for disc media, since we'd all have gigabit fiber and exabyte SSDs. But we aren't all rich, and 1080p is about the best we can hope for in TV quality for the next couple of decades (720p or 1080i more likely for most people's budgets), so is the additional space on a blu-ray disc even going to be utilized enough to justify the cost? My brain doesn't know the answer, but my wallet seems to think it does.

 

[Phil]

1.) Blu-Ray isn't a "Sony only" format, it's a format by the Blu-Ray Association Group http://www.blu-raydisc.com

2.) MiniDisc enjoyed quite an adoption rate outside the US. It's still quite popular in Europe as well as Japan, only hampered by the success of mp3 and digital content distribution.

3.) MemorySticks have failed? It may not be the number one format, but you got to be kidding me. Alone the support of Sony's line of products seems to make it a format that can quite stand on its own...

4.) Price will come down once the adoption rate picks up. Blu-Ray might be more expensive initially, but it should also prove to last longer thanks to more space which can only benefit the consumer.

 

[HaLDoL]

Unified DVD negotiations fail

I know a lot of you hardcore A/V geeks are all for blu-ray, but there are several reasons I am cheering for HD-DVD right now:

1) Sony
2) Price
3) Sony

I honestly can't remember the last time a Sony proprietary media format benefited the consumer electronics industry. I'm not even sure there has ever been one. Betamax, MiniDisc, MicroMV, Atrac, Memory Stick have all failed, despite most of them being technically superior. I have serious doubts that UMD will have any widespread adoption outside of Sony pictures. And if everything I hear is true, blu-ray DVD players and discs alike will be considerably more expensive than HD-DVDs. Hasn't Sony learned their lesson?

If a blu-ray player/burner costs 50% more than an HD-DVD player/burner, blu-ray movies cost 10-20% more than HD-DVD movies, and blank media costs 100-200% more for blu-ray than HD-DVD, will it really matter to consumers if blu-ray holds 10 GB more per layer? If we were all rich there wouldn't even be a use for disc media, since we'd all have gigabit fiber and exabyte SSDs. But we aren't all rich, and 1080p is about the best we can hope for in TV quality for the next couple of decades (720p or 1080i more likely for most people's budgets), so is the additional space on a blu-ray disc even going to be utilized enough to justify the cost? My brain doesn't know the answer, but my wallet seems to think it does.

So you have something against Sony. That says it all doesn't it?
Do you have a source for your "if" statements? I don't think BR discs will be much more expensive than HD-DVD ones, at least not 100-200% as you're saying.

But let's assume a BR disc will cost 100-200% more and let's assume that the production costs of a bare HDDVD disc is about 10 (dollar) cents, a BR disc will cost 20-30 cents.
I'm sure you will not notice this 10-20 cent price difference when a BR disc is sold in retail for about 15-25 dollars.
If your wallet can feel this, you have a very sensitive wallet.

 

[one]

I honestly can't remember the last time a Sony proprietary media format benefited the consumer electronics industry.

OK, here's a history class for you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk

The 3½-inch microfloppy diskette

This format is also known as 3.5-inch.

Throughout the early 1980s the limitations of the 5¼-inch format were starting to become clear as machines grew in power. A number of solutions were developed, with drives at 2-inch, 2½-inch, 3-inch and 3½-inch (50, 60, 75 and 90 mm) all being offered by various companies. They all shared a number of advantages over the older format, including a small form factor and a rigid case with a slideable write protect catch.

Things changed dramatically in 1984 when Apple Computer selected the Sony 90.0 × 94.0 mm format for their Macintosh computers, thereby forcing it to become the standard format in the United States. (This is yet another example of a "silent" change from metric to imperial units; this product was advertised and became popularly known as the 3½-inch disk, emphasizing the fact that it was smaller than the existing 5¼-inch.) The first computer to use this format was the HP-150 of 1983. By 1989 the 3½-inch was outselling the 5¼-inch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_disc

In 1979 Philips and Sony decided to join forces, setting up a joint taskforce of engineers whose mission was to design the new digital audio disc. Prominent members of the taskforce were Kees Immink and Toshitada Doi. After a year of experimentation and discussion, the taskforce produced the "Red Book", the Compact Disc standard.

 

[Sxotty]

3.) MemorySticks have failed? It may not be the number one format, but you got to be kidding me. Alone the support of Sony's line of products seems to make it a format that can quite stand on its own...

This is exaclty why Sony sucks. The only reason they can push their standards is they make them only work in their products so you are forced to buy them. This creates a monopoly effect, I would much prefer they joined up with a larger consortium than just a few other companies to make products and that they are royalty free.

 

[Crusher]

OK, here's a history class for you...

Ah, thank you. So it's been about 26 years since they've created a media format that benefited the industry My how time flies.

 

[Windfire]

Personally, I think the entire HD-DVD / Blue-ray DVD is a bust.

Now, to clarify, I have a 50" wide-screen HD-TV and a 300 disc Sony DVD juke-box (progressive, etc) and dolby-digital with 6.1. Yes, it is loaded with my families favorite 300 movies.

Why do I say HD-DVD is a bust?

Because lawyers and beaurecrats have taken over. The latest I hear is that the new standard(s) require HDMI input to get HD--that rules out 80%+ of the HDs sold. Also, the new standard is very hostile in my opinion.

See the articles on HD DVD standards here: http://www.dvdfile.com/

I think I'll stick with DVD and just wave at Holywood (with one finger).

No thanks.

 

[PARANOiA]

This is exaclty why Sony sucks. The only reason they can push their standards is they make them only work in their products so you are forced to buy them.

I concur. I bet if you could have used Compact Flash on all products that require Sony mem sticks it would be a lot less successful. Reducing choice doesn't make success, IMO.

I hope personally there is a unified format that allows me to use my non-HDMI high-def tv with the new format at the required definition (about a year old now) but that's not going to happen.

 

[poopypoo]

have to throw in with the OP, and i'm NOT ashamed to admit that some of it is just healthy dislike of SONY. they never have any regard for the consumer, and what they accomplish in innovation is usually overshadowed by their silly pricing.

 

[Acert93]

have to throw in with the OP, and i'm NOT ashamed to admit that some of it is just healthy dislike of SONY. they never have any regard for the consumer, and what they accomplish in innovation is usually overshadowed by their silly pricing.

While I agree with many of the comments about the proprietary monopoly method (which Sony is really hurting from right now... specifically from MP3s) I must say:

Almost all big corperations do it.

MS is using a similar tactic to push their WMC PCs. I think all these big companies realize if they can get in on the ground level and be the FOUNDATION they have a lot of control of that product and input on the next format.

The only solution is for an "open" standard that offers both companies and consumers significant benefits and downplays advantages of proprietary formats.

I am not sure how much of this applies to HD-DVD and BR (maybe BR is pretty open... I am not aware of the inner workings) but it seems HD-DVD is dead, if only because of the swing in support.

That said if BR movies come in high, like $30, and HD-DVD can come in at $20, and the quality is basically the same I think BR may be in trouble. While BR will have more support, the problem is companies will NOT be flooding the market because they will do what they did with DVDs: strategically launch their killer titles over a LONG period of time.

So cost may be a very important factor for initial momentum. Similarly who launches first. I heard that HD-DVD was being delayed (not sure if true), but if it is part of it can probably be related to the "stalling" by the BR Association (well, more accurately Sony because every press release about format discussions I have read has Sony explicitly mentioned). I think the on and off again talks is strategic and I think it has worked.

Anyhow, while HD movies will look better on a large screen TV, having watched I, Robot on a HD TV recently did not dissapoint. While "only" DVD, I am not sure I would pay MORE to get a HD version of a movie I already have.

I know A/V nuts will, but I have friends with HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of DVDs. (Ironcailly most of them have recently got HD TVs that do NOT have HDMI or DVI). Because they are being told they need not only new Players, but also new discs AND new TVs... well, I can see slow adoption.

Just not the same as the DVD launch (which was slow too) because DVD's showed a benefit on EVERY TV.

BR/HD-DVD are making you get specific TVs, Players, and Media. And the format is divided...

Meh. When there are 10k titles and you can get them for $10 each and the players are $50, like DVD players, and every TV has HDMI maybe I will take a look