AGEIA's PPU - Beyond physics

[Ateo]

Found this interesting tidbit, about the architechture of the PPU:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/physx-hpc.ars

Asking questions
What if I told you that most of what the tech press thinks they know about Ageia and the PhysX PPU is completely wrong? What if I told you that there's more to PhysX than physics? And what if I said that there exists a grand unified theory of stream computing and the high-performance computing (HPC) market that's simple and perhaps even a bit obvious, but it makes sense of all the stream-computing-related press releases from NVIDIA, AMD/ATI, Ageia, Peakstream, and others that have been coming down the wire in past year?

Maybe you'd think I'm crazy, but you should hear me out first.

More int the article, but looks like AGEIA has been keping a tight pokerface about what their PPU is capable of doing.

This goes well in line with my speculations in this thread:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=38812

So there might be quite a bit more to the PPU and a reason for that AGEIA has been so tightlipped.
And this might explain why NVIDA and AMD(then ATI) was so quick to launch a PR-spin claming GPU-physics on G70/G71 and R520/R580, but never delivered anything.
Except a massive amount of PR and then nothing...just silence...to steal AGEIA's thunder.

 

[BRiT]

More int the article, but looks like AGEIA has been keping a tight pokerface about what their PPU is capable of doing.

So there might be quite a bit more to the PPU and a reason for that AGEIA has been so tightlipped.

I call Bullshit. Remaining tight-lipped for well over a year about a product you've been trying to sell does nothing positive for your revenue.

 

[Ateo]

I call Bullshit. Remaining tight-lipped for well over a year about a product you've been trying to sell does nothing positive for your revenue.

You are calling Codeplay "bullshitters"?
It's not like AGEIA is in a tight finacial spot, they landed a very big deal with SONY as to the use of the PhysX API on the PS3

Only thing I would call "bullshit" is NVIDIA/AMD's GPU-physcis PR on G70/G71 and R520/R580.

 

[BRiT]

You are calling Codeplay "bullshitters"?
It's not like AGEIA is in a tight finacial spot, they landed a very big deal with SONY as to the use of the PhysX API on the PS3

Only thing I would call "bullshit" is NVIDIA/AMD's GPU-physcis PR on G70/G71 and R520/R580.

No. Nothing negative on Codeplay, just pure negativity on Ageia's PPU. Their tech-license of their PhysX API is completely seperate from their PPU hardware. If their PPU hardware is so capable and they haven't sold the industry and enthusiasts on it in well over a year, then their marketting, dev-rel, and executive management are utterly incompetent.

 

[Ateo]

No. Nothing negative on Codeplay, just pure negativity on Ageia's PPU. Their tech-license of their PhysX API is completely seperate from their PPU hardware. If their PPU hardware is so capable and they haven't sold the industry and enthusiasts on it in well over a year, then their marketting, dev-rel, and executive management are utterly incompetent.

I guess the fact they have won over a ton of developers dosn't matter...just for there physics?
Or that Acer,Dell & Alienware offers models with AGEIA's PhysX PPU(hardware)?
But I would like to hear you factual critique of the points made in the article, as "bullshit" dosn't cut it very far in my book.

Cellfactor, Warmonger and Infernal should raise some eyebrows too...not to mention the fact that AGEIA now have the PhysX API in use on the PC, the PS3, The Wii and the Xbox360.

Ageia is doing better than most people thinks actually

 

[Skrying]

Infernal is a cool game, but it runs extremely smooth on my system....... without a PhysX card inside.

AGEIA has proved that their API is solid and developers have supported it and therefore at least give support in some way to the physical card itself. But you honestly do not find very many people who would recommend buying a PPU unit. They've basically become thought of as a waste, and while that might be unfair to a certain extent I believe it to be the truth for the most part. You certainly won't find me recommending one or buying one.

Sony didn't buy AGEIA hardware and simply the API. Developers are not saying "Buy the PhysX card!". They're using the API, which as mentioned might be well beyond the capabilities of the card.

 

[Ateo]

Infernal is a cool game, but it runs extremely smooth on my system....... without a PhysX card inside.

And of course you have fluids, cloth ect?
Or is it just like CellFactor runs "fine" without a PPU...just no fluids and cloth.
Talk about comparing apples and motorbikes...

AGEIA has proved that their API is solid and developers have supported it and therefore at least give support in some way to the physical card itself. But you honestly do not find very many people who would recommend buying a PPU unit. They've basically become thought of as a waste, and while that might be unfair to a certain extent I believe it to be the truth for the most part. You certainly won't find me recommending one or buying one.

There is more incetive to buy a PPU now, than there was to buy a Voodoo1 card back in those days.
And adding physics from the bottom up, not just partial tacked on patch support, is more complicated than simply rending visuals on a GPU.

Sony didn't buy AGEIA hardware and simply the API. Developers are not saying "Buy the PhysX card!". They're using the API, which as mentioned might be well beyond the capabilities of the card.

Dosn't change the fact that they scored a boatload of money, nor that certain things in the API can only run with PPU-acceleration(on the PC) so I think you have the bucket turned upside down...the PPU further enhances the API and gives more functions, get the SDK and you will see what I mean

 

[Davros]

"There is more incetive to buy a PPU now, than there was to buy a Voodoo1 card back in those days."

You gotta be kidding...

 

[Skrying]

And of course you have fluids, cloth ect?
Or is it just like CellFactor runs "fine" without a PPU...just no fluids and cloth.
Talk about comparing apples and motorbikes...

I'm sorry, but CellFactor is not even a good game. I also have serious doubts about a PPU being realistically needed. Even if it was, it doesn't change the fact that CellFactor is just not a good game. Also, where did I even mention CellFactor, I said Infernal, playing the demo I wasn't even aware there was fluids, and cloths? Oh joy, now I can enjoy the game 10x more because Lennox jacket realistically folds around his body.

There is more incetive to buy a PPU now, than there was to buy a Voodoo1 card back in those days.
And adding physics from the bottom up, not just partial tacked on patch support, is more complicated than simply rending visuals on a GPU.

A video however changes nearly all of gaming library. A PPU on the other hand effects..... none currently. I plan on buying Infernal, but that will be the first game. From my knowledge there's nothing at all that will be added. I can already max the quality settings at my monitor native resolution. So why do I need the oh so wonderful PPU?

Dosn't change the fact that they scored a boatload of money, nor that certain things in the API can only run with PPU-acceleration(on the PC) so I think you have the bucket turned upside down...the PPU further enhances the API and gives more functions, get the SDK and you will see what I mean

Maybe, but I don't plan on wasting my time with the SDK, because well I have no time to mess with it.

 

[Ateo]

I'm sorry, but CellFactor is not even a good game. I also have serious doubts about a PPU being realistically needed. Even if it was, it doesn't change the fact that CellFactor is just not a good game. Also, where did I even mention CellFactor, I said Infernal, playing the demo I wasn't even aware there was fluids, and cloths? Oh joy, now I can enjoy the game 10x more because Lennox jacket realistically folds around his body.

You are talking about the demo right?
The games has not been released yet, and will have much more than was shown in CellFactor -Traning demo..and some rather nifty mods are already done, just waiting for the game to be released
And you "sarcasm" dosn't bite on me, I detected a monk, by the moving cloth...it revealed that he had been there and what way he went....bye-bye dead world, welcome living world.

A video however changes nearly all of gaming library. A PPU on the other hand effects..... none currently. I plan on buying Infernal, but that will be the first game. From my knowledge there's nothing at all that will be added. I can already max the quality settings at my monitor native resolution. So why do I need the oh so wonderful PPU?

You can not max the quality settings, since you have no cloth or fluids, nes pas?
The game will have more with a PPU, like it or not.
I have been gaming since the C64 days, and I am tired of empty visuasl and the dead world...no amount of DX10, AA or AF will change that.

Maybe, but I don't plan on wasting my time with the SDK, because well I have no time to mess with it.

Not maybe, you were wrong, plain and simple.

 

[Capeta]

Personally I'm really excited about PPU cards and I predict that Project Offset will be THE killer app for it.

 

[Tim Murray]

So... according to the Ars article, it's a big vector processor capable of processing multiple threads simultaneously with lots of onboard memory. Why wouldn't you just want to use a G80 and CUDA again? Or a R600 and one of the higher-level languages that compile to CTM? Plus, the intro to the article is just insulting. "They want to use it for more than games! They want to use it as a vector coprocessor for HPC apps!" Duh? We've known that since it was announced because it's completely obvious. I know plenty of physicists who are slobbering over the idea of double-precision GPUs that they can use for general purpose applications. So, if PhysX were as suitable for this as the author claims, we'd be seeing something--preliminary results, code, even just one line blurbs saying "I'm running general-purpose apps on a PhysX card and it's fast"--from academia by now. Where do you think GPGPU really got started? (hi Stanford )

Also, I don't think Sieve is nearly as revolutionary as people are claiming it to be. It looks like an improved version of OpenMP. Hooray?

 

[Demirug]

The reason why so many PC developers use the PhysX API is the Budget they have. If you don’t have to pay for your middleware you can spend the money somewhere else. Unfortunately (for Ageia) game development still need around 24 months and we have seen what’s happen if you add some more physic effects at the end of this time or even beyond.

Maybe their business model will work in the end. Give away the physic middle ware for free had fill their game list. This list was for sure very helpful to get a deal with Dell and if more and more Dell systems will be delivered with PhysX on board more developer will at least think about using it.

But it seems like the need some money quick and tries to get a foot in other markets. Telling people that their PPU can do other things than physic is a necessary step but it will destroy the image of the “physic chipâ€￾ at the same time. As Tim already noticed if PhysX is only a strong vector processor (what I have believed from the very first moment) we can use any another vector processor for this job. Even an IGP may be strong enough for some games. Anyway I still have the feeling that in the end PhysX would only be a short chapter in the history a game technology book.

 

[Ateo]

So... according to the Ars article, it's a big vector processor capable of processing multiple threads simultaneously with lots of onboard memory. Why wouldn't you just want to use a G80 and CUDA again? Or a R600 and one of the higher-level languages that compile to CTM?

- Free API.
- Max power consumption of 28 watts.
- The price for the hardware

 

[pjbliverpool]

If you can perform physics like those in Crysis on a dual core CPU and quad and more core CPU's are just around the corner (in terms of mainstream affordability) then whats the need for a PPU?

Things like cloth and fluid simulations which may really bog down a CPU are generally none gameplay effecting anyway so can simply be transferred to the GPU.

I think by offloading all the none gameplay effecting physics to the GPU and just keeping the purely gameplay effecting elements on the CPU the PPU becomes redundant.

Do any devs think a quad core isn't enough for this task in games due over the next 3 years? (afterwhich we will have even more cores to play with)

 

[Tim Murray]

- Free API.
- Max power consumption of 28 watts.
- The price for the hardware

- CUDA is free. I imagine somebody will develop a CPU backend that doesn't suck (e.g., not used only for debugging the GPU). Brook is also free and supports CTM.
- Power consumption is not as big of a deal as performance per watt. I'm certainly not convinced that Ageia has any advantage there.
- CUDA is supported across the G8x line. CTM will be supported on all R/RV6x0 cards, I assume. This favors GPUs, not PhysX.

 

[Capeta]

If you can perform physics like those in Crysis on a dual core CPU and quad and more core CPU's are just around the corner (in terms of mainstream affordability) then whats the need for a PPU?

Things like cloth and fluid simulations which may really bog down a CPU are generally none gameplay effecting anyway so can simply be transferred to the GPU.

I think by offloading all the none gameplay effecting physics to the GPU and just keeping the purely gameplay effecting elements on the CPU the PPU becomes redundant.

Do any devs think a quad core isn't enough for this task in games due over the next 3 years? (afterwhich we will have even more cores to play with)

The games of today are too simple in terms of physics modeling including Crysis. I want to play a game where realtime drafts affect EVERYTHING in the environment for example if the breeze is blowing in a certain direction I want smoke from gunfire, explosions, etc to drift in the right direction. Same with flags/cloth, swaying trees/branches/leaves.

I want smoke particles to behave like real smoke simulations not scripted. I want dirt that is kicked up to behave realistically. I want tree branches and leaves to break realistically when fired upon not just the trunks. I want walls made of hundreds of bricks to collapse randomly not scripted. I want a wooden door to break/chip realistically not scripted when I shoot at it. I want fire/flames to behave realistically. If I use a flamethrower I want it to be dynamic. I want water to behave realistically when fired upon, objects to float realistically, dynamic waves/ripples ect. The list goes on and on.

 

[Skrying]

Your point was? Sorry, but that won't be happening anytime soon.

 

[Davros]

Capeta you'll be wanting an extensible arm next aka tresspasser

 

[_xxx_]

Why does anyone still talk about this turd of a PPU?

Ageia will maybe survive, but only as a SW provider. Just forget about that hardware part, it was a pos to begin with.