Activision CEO: “We Might Have To Stop Supporting Sony”

I think it would be even more relevant with WiiHD.
My team usually develops simultaneously on X360 and PS3.
The sales on PS3 are not great and we wish all the time we can do the Wii version as well but the complexity of scaling assets between Wii and X360/PS3 is just too much for one team.
But with WiiHD in the picture (assuming decent GPU) this changes things dramatically - I'd switch to X360/WiiHD simultaneous development in a heartbeat.

PS: Publishers pay fees per manufactured discs (yes, definite risk) and last gen the fees were sub $10, I suspect they haven't changed this gen.

PPS: We get pressure to deliver "on-par" experience on 360/PS3 and that's because of good relationship with Sony, but imagine what will happen if this is "relaxed". Trust me the X360 is not "maxed out". People who say that are idiots.
OT forgive me but an engine could really maxed out a console also if it's a totally crap and not necessary needs to be a developer to understand that. I don't thinks infinity ward lie if MW 2 is the best who can do on 360 or who are idiot to said that. I don't understood this type of comment especially from a programmer.
 
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Is it that expensive to make a scalable multi-platform console engine? Why must a publisher need to make both games similar? Why not make the games to each platform strengths which Sony should allow to pass the verification? PS3 games could have more physical objects, better AI, more audio channels etc. If i have 2 PC, A (Core i7 920 & HD4870 512MB) and B (C2D E8200 & HD4890), and i want to run COH, for PC A i would turn down the textures, effects, hdr etc but turn up full physics, environmental sfx, object scarring etc. For PC B, i would play with the visual effects, it seems very common for PC engines supporting different hardware, eh, you guys get my drift...:?:
 
Is it that expensive to make a scalable multi-platform console engine? Why must a publisher need to make both games similar? Why not make the games to each platform strengths which Sony should allow to pass the verification? PS3 games could have more physical objects, better AI, more audio channels etc. If i have 2 PC, A (Core i7 920 & HD4870 512MB) and B (C2D E8200 & HD4890), and i want to run COH, for PC A i would turn down the textures, effects, hdr etc but turn up full physics, environmental sfx, object scarring etc. For PC B, i would play with the visual effects, it seems very common for PC engines supporting different hardware, eh, you guys get my drift...:?:

The only way I thinks is the tools on the ps3 who were more expansive until the last GDC I know. Now could be more affordable after the cut, will see if the developers would continue to use its engine or would prefers the phyre engine offered by sony.
 
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I'm on the verge to report quiet some posts here...
Where is the problem when Joker454 spoke about Naughty dogs?
Basically it's more a hint of his respect for the team can achieve than anything. Jumping on the gun is no help here and could have bad effect on how much some members here are wiling to share with us.
 
And in doing so he implied with a backhanded complement that the PS3 has been maxed out (or more acurately, had every last ounce extracted out of it) while the x360 is anything but.

He implied nothing of the kind. What he said is that his own multiplatform studio doesn't spent any resources in improving the 360 version beyond what they can do on the PS3, for fear of bringing down Sony's wrath upon them. Something that has been hinted on this very forum from many developers.

What a focused single-platform studio like Naughty Dog can do working for 2-3 years on a title for the PS3 does not translate to what a multiplatform studio can do having only 12 months, frequently less, for a game. The latter is the situation where the 360 is not allowed to shine, not some theoretical "maxing out" situations.
 
I'm confused. The reason 360 exclusives are not developed to use 360 hardware efficiently is what exactly? Sony wrath? :)
 
Dan Greenawalt would have us believe otherwise.:smile:

Like how Kojima said MGS4 was tapping PS3 to it's limits? :???:

Dunno how much truth there is behind both coments as in smart optimisations/code vs hitting the 100% utilisation gauge mark.. Also when talking about 'not fully tapped', are we talking about the last couple of 5-10% perfomance?

Is it even possible to tap effectively 95% or more?
 
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I'm confused. The reason 360 exclusives are not developed to use 360 hardware efficiently is what exactly? Sony wrath? :)

And fans, have you seen comparision threads of same game? :eek:

They might just limit one platform to not make to much 'noise' so to say.
 
And fans, have you seen comparision threads of same game? :eek:

They might just limit one platform to not make to much 'noise' so to say.

Lets just pretend that was true, then the Exclusive titles should look alot better than the 3rd party titles which is not the case.
 
And fans, have you seen comparision threads of same game? :eek:
betan said 'exclusives'. That is, when joker says :
It's unfortunate that there really is no equivalent to Naughty Dog on the 360, as in there is no dev team extracting every ounce of performance out of it.
...one does wonder what Lionhead and Rare and others are doing. Are we to believe that ND alone in the world of game development can maximise a piece of hardware, and all other developers can only aspire to 'moderate to good' performance? Or are Sony the only ones willing to invest as much, and Lionhead et al would be maxxing out the XB360 isf only MS would let them?

Personally I think 'maxxed out' statements are irrelevant PR. A developer's creations are quite capable of advertising the developers skills in themselves.
 
betan said 'exclusives'. That is, when joker says :
...one does wonder what Lionhead and Rare and others are doing. Are we to believe that ND alone in the world of game development can maximise a piece of hardware, and all other developers can only aspire to 'moderate to good' performance? Or are Sony the only ones willing to invest as much, and Lionhead et al would be maxxing out the XB360 isf only MS would let them?

It seems that at this point Microsoft consider the hardcore gamers "in their bag", and are investing almost the entire force of their first-party studios towards the Wii audience, with Natal, that free-to-play racing game etc. You don't need to max out hardware - especially not in the graphics department.

As for exclusives vs. multiplats: Halo Wars is by far the best looking RTS on the current gen; I realize that's not saying much :)
 
What about prior to Natal? I am unable to reconcile joker's comment to the existence of MS's first-party studios. I can't see the lofic between ND maxxing whatever hardware they work with and other 1st developer or exclusive developers managing the same.
 
And in doing so he implied with a backhanded complement that the PS3 has been maxed out (or more acurately, had every last ounce extracted out of it) while the x360 is anything but.

Holy smokes you guys are hyper sensitive about your PS3's, my goodness. No, that isn't even remotely what I was getting at. I mean jeeze I have friends there, and I've owned every game they have made for years including Way Of The Warrior on my 3do. Sigh.

Let me reword it in simpler language. Naughty Dog exists in a vacuum. In their studio the only target hardware in existence in this universe or the adjacent one is the PS3. Therefore, there entire development path, structure, design methodology, whatever you want to call it, is 100% tailored to extract whatever is best and/or whatever they need for this single platform called the PS3.

Now, don't lose me here because I'm gonna mention the 360 so some might think I'm automatically calling everyone at ND and Sony an idiot, fools, etc, but here goes. In the 360 development world, "as far as I know" there is no equivalent to the setup at ND. There are customizations made as sebbi mentions, but 360 products are not built at 360 products, they are built as multi platform products. This goes the same "as far as I know" for exclusive games both because it's cheaper (you don't need to hire as many platform specialists), and because product needs to be ready to hop off to some other platform in case someone writes a big enough check.

So, that is why I also laugh when I hear comments of the 360 maxed out because I know how so many studios operate. I re-read the above 5 times to make sure it doesn't affect peoples PS3 sensitivities, but I'm sure someone will find hate in there somewhere.


My point still is that it makes absolutely no sense for activision not to sell it´s game on the PS3.


I agree....for COD because it makes bank. But does it make sense on the whole? I'll follow up in my response below:


I'm referring to Barbarian's comments, that's what we were talking about. He's not a publisher, but a developer. If he drops the PS3 he drops the PS3, he's not keeping his biggest hits on the PS3 while avoiding it with more niche stuff. And that really doesn't address what I said in the first place: it's odd to put faith in a console you don't know about over one you do, unless you're living in some weird future where the WiiHD is actually the PS3 with better sales.

There is always a leap of faith that happens every generation, it doesn't matter that that WiiHD hardware isn't out. If there wasn't then no one would have moved away from PS2. To the suits it's always the same, they look at what we make and what we could be making it and shift everything accordingly. Barbarian may very well have been talking future as well, as in keep going on PS3 for now and shift later. And why not, they could probably put out 5 to 10 Wii/WiiHD titles for the cost of a single PS3 title. Risking a companies outlook on a single product is huge risk, but 10 products? Much better. I worked very briefly for a multi platform company that made what everyone here would consider a crap Wii game. However this game made more net revenue that countless other name brand PS3 games. Guess what, they dropped PS3 support. It does sometimes happen that way at the developer level.


My point is as above: you're talking about the WiiHD as if the WiiHD were some holy grail, the PS2 of the HD generation and it's a strange thing to do. Because the WiiHD doesn't exist in any way other than on forums.

The problem with eliminating the PS3 is the size of the market. HD's a smaller market than the Wii market, but more expensive to make games for. If you drop the PS3 on these games, you lose 35-40% of the install-base, in which 50% of the effort (according to assurdum) goes into making assets. And no, I have problems believing that PC is a substitute. As Brad Wardell reminds us, the PC was never home to a blockbuster audience and is better served by games targeted at an older audience. If we're strictly speaking of ROI, then we could just as easily say that it's safer for Activision to start targetting the Wii for all its games and simply upscale assets for the 360/PS3. As you've pointed out, this would of course exclude CoD from this, as the HD version makes more money than the Wii one. But probably not GH.

But what if WiiHD is a holy grail? Wouldn't it suck if it was and a publisher was caught with their pants down having not supported it from day one, then are forced to play catch up? That's the thinking that goes on here. You need multiple towels to wipe up the financial slobber that occurs when there are talks about the Wii. It's still viewed as a bit of an unknown with gargantuan potential. The "HD market" argument is moot since WiiHD games will almost certainly work on non HD tvs just like current HD consoles. Plus you and I know full well that simply upscaling Wii games to 360/PS3 would be suicide. It's more about properly targeting the 100 pound gorilla in the room with stuff other than ports, namely the Wii/WiiHD.

Yes the PS3 market is big, but who cares if people aren't buying a publishers games in a meaningful amount. Does anyone have a breakdown of Activisions PS3 revenues for 2008? I suspect just a handful of games make up the bulk of that amount. Keep those, and ditch the rest. Like I said, they will never just pull the "off" switch, that would be insane. But keep the COD level stuff and kill the rest. Whats the point of say risking say 20 million to earn maybe an extra 50 million on all these lower tier PS3 games, irregardless of how big the market is, when that same 20 million could yield a 10x return on Wii/WiiHD?
 
Assets and design (sounds, music, textures, 3d models, UI graphics, UI design, storyline, concepts, sounds, music, levels, level script, FMVs, etc) have always required considerably over 50% of the work force in our projects. And few dedicated programmers have been working on the asset pipeline code (PC/Linux) all the time. All of this is platform independent work.

Yes but I specifically mentioned "bottleneck" not "work load". A game is held up because of performance, features or bugs, not missing art assets which can be bought from stock galleries if need be. If you don't care a lot about consistency you can also hire one artist per art item on the project and parallel your entire art pipeline whereas code doesn't work like that at all.
 
I'm curious why you guys think this is in the realm of impossibility. Sure, not in the next one or two years while the console landscape stays the same, but what about when a new machine comes out, like an Xbox 720? You all know very well about the cost, difficulty and support issues on PS3, or at least you should know if you have read my posts over the past few years :) You also know that publishers have finite budgets. So why do you think it's impossible that a major publisher would drop PS3 in a few years and instead shift all those dollars to a new cash cow?
Take any 360 game in development and consider the economics of making a PS3 port. You barely need any new art, you barely need any more marketing, and don't need any new level design or game scripting.

Even if game engine coding costs 3x as much on the PS3, how much can that possibly inflate total game development costs? Activision will add at least 50% sales with under 20% increase in cost.

Sorry, joker454, but this just plainly is inside the realm of impossibility. The only way it wouldn't be is if Microsoft sweetens the pot with a huge exclusivity deal, and for that to be worth foregoing the PS3 version for Activision, MS would have to wipe out all profits from a game. MS would thus only do it for a few games at most, which is much tamer than PS3 being dropped.

Your argument about a new console or new project is silly. Imagine a game sells 1M copies on 360 and costs $10M to develop (e.g. $1M engine code, $4M content, $2M gameplay/testing/feedback, $3M marketing). Making that title multiplatform may cost another $3M but gets you 500k more sales (probably more). That's a huge ROI that no new project can match with any certainty. You're basically saying that Activision can't expand fast enough take advantage of new opportunities, and thus must sacrifice easy money in making a game multiplatform. That's BS, especially in this economy.
 
...one does wonder what Lionhead and Rare and others are doing.
MS first party studios don't compare to Sony in terms of technical talent. Rare hasn't done anything impressive graphically since the pixel shader era, which started 10 years ago, and graphics have never been Lionhead's strength. Others, like Turn 10, are indeed finally catching up to PD's technology with FM3, which makes you wonder WTF Sony was doing waiting around on PD's huge technology lead and watching it evaporate.

Sony's first parties were developed/acquired when technical ability made an enormous difference in the impact (and sales) of a game. The Gran Turismo series is a great example. Microsoft, on the other hand, simply needed a hot seller on their superior XBox1 hardware. Technical talent wasn't needed then (Halo just did simple stuff that PS2 couldn't easily do), and even now all they want to do is grab some of the Wii audience.

MS never had a 100M+ userbase that they could use as leverage to get the best talent to maximize their hardware, and instead tried to lure PC devs to greener pastures by making cross platform development simple. Hence the situation joker454 described of MS exclusives being developed like multiplatform titles.
 
Your argument about a new console or new project is silly. Imagine a game sells 1M copies on 360 and costs $10M to develop (e.g. $1M engine code, $4M content, $2M gameplay/testing/feedback, $3M marketing). Making that title multiplatform may cost another $3M but gets you 500k more sales (probably more). That's a huge ROI that no new project can match with any certainty. You're basically saying that Activision can't expand fast enough take advantage of new opportunities, and thus must sacrifice easy money in making a game multiplatform. That's BS, especially in this economy.

LOL, a multiplatform console title for $10M -- how quaint!
 
Very little third-party PS3 titles sell anything like 500K. Guitar Hero, COD, the major sports franchises... What else?
 
Let me reword it in simpler language. Naughty Dog exists in a vacuum. In their studio the only target hardware in existence in this universe or the adjacent one is the PS3. Therefore, there entire development path, structure, design methodology, whatever you want to call it, is 100% tailored to extract whatever is best and/or whatever they need for this single platform called the PS3.

Now, don't lose me here because I'm gonna mention the 360 so some might think I'm automatically calling everyone at ND and Sony an idiot, fools, etc, but here goes. In the 360 development world, "as far as I know" there is no equivalent to the setup at ND. There are customizations made as sebbi mentions, but 360 products are not built at 360 products, they are built as multi platform products. This goes the same "as far as I know" for exclusive games both because it's cheaper (you don't need to hire as many platform specialists), and because product needs to be ready to hop off to some other platform in case someone writes a big enough check.

So, that is why I also laugh when I hear comments of the 360 maxed out because I know how so many studios operate. I re-read the above 5 times to make sure it doesn't affect peoples PS3 sensitivities, but I'm sure someone will find hate in there somewhere.

I have to ask about this part. As Microsoft dropped PC games development altogether (at least everything points at that), what would stop their internal studios and 3rd party partners like Epic or Ruffian to operate the same way Naughty Dog does? I would certainly love to see more games truely pushing the hardware.:smile:
 
Take any 360 game in development and consider the economics of making a PS3 port. You barely need any new art, you barely need any more marketing, and don't need any new level design or game scripting.

Even if game engine coding costs 3x as much on the PS3, how much can that possibly inflate total game development costs? Activision will add at least 50% sales with under 20% increase in cost.

Sorry, joker454, but this just plainly is inside the realm of impossibility. The only way it wouldn't be is if Microsoft sweetens the pot with a huge exclusivity deal, and for that to be worth foregoing the PS3 version for Activision, MS would have to wipe out all profits from a game. MS would thus only do it for a few games at most, which is much tamer than PS3 being dropped.

Your argument about a new console or new project is silly. Imagine a game sells 1M copies on 360 and costs $10M to develop (e.g. $1M engine code, $4M content, $2M gameplay/testing/feedback, $3M marketing). Making that title multiplatform may cost another $3M but gets you 500k more sales (probably more). That's a huge ROI that no new project can match with any certainty. You're basically saying that Activision can't expand fast enough take advantage of new opportunities, and thus must sacrifice easy money in making a game multiplatform. That's BS, especially in this economy.

Well like I said I don't think PS3 would be out right dropped, but having lesser sellers cut is in the realm of possibility to me. There's been a contraction of sorts lately, the game industry has slowed down hiring dramatically (there's lots of out of work game coders now), and companies are looking to make more from what they have. A PS3 port that sells 300k copies might be profitable, but if your company isn't hiring and/or expanding then it might make sense at some point to drop a 300k selling PS3 game and take those same people and have them sell five 150k Wii games. What I noticed with the really big players like EA and Activision is that they aren't content with small profits. To me and you a PS3 port that sells 300k is a win, but to them they don't necessarily see it as having made an extra say 30 million, but having potentially lost 150 million if they had instead allocated those resources elsewhere. Also, how many of their PS3 games actually sell 500k+? Anyone have some numbers?

Looking further out, when the new machines comes around (720/WiiHD), I don't think there will be a hiring frenzy like there was back when 360/PS3 were launched. Four years ago anyone would get hired as a game developer, people were being snapped up left right and center. I don't think there will be a repeat of that, meaning that some people on existing product will be shifted where needed. That means something has to be cut. Where will the cuts come from?
 
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