A Summary of the Huge Wii Thread

[Teasy]

But the wii has replaced the 16 mb for a brand new 64. And speed went from a lacuster 81 Mhz to a full fledge 650 Mhz DDR3 like the one used in XBOX 360. We are talking about a huge increase in ram, and specially in RAM Speed. If my calculations are correct, something in the order of aproximate 24 times faster.

I haven't heard anything about the 64MB of GDDR3 memory running at 650Mhz (where did you hear that?). But of course your right that its much faster then GC's A-RAM, at least 48 times as fast actually (a minimum of 486Mhz double data rate with a 32bit bus which is 3.9GB/s).

 

[see colon]

A optimized 640*480 jpeg image with no compression uses less than 200 kB. With compression of 4:1 we could place 500 of those in 25MB of the Wii memory. Why crappy textures then?

jpeg is compression.

regarding A-RAM; the PS2 still had to use it's main memory for audio and disc cache, and even if it was only a small amount (2-3MB), we're talking about a small amount of system memory to begin with. A-RAM still played an important role, and it's part of the reason why GC games had quicker loading than PS2.

 

[Metal_Spirit]

I haven't heard anything about the 64MB of GDDR3 memory running at 650Mhz (where did you hear that?). But of course your right that its much faster then GC's A-RAM, at least 48 times as fast actually (a minimum of 486Mhz double data rate with a 32bit bus which is 3.9GB/s).

This 650 Mhz GDDR 3 was in the Wiigeepeeyou thread, and for what I read, of i remember it right it´s a Nec memory, and exactly equal to the ones that equip the 360.

But hey... There were more than 100 pages on that thread and I haven´t read all, so I assumed this as true. Am I wrong???

 

[DeadlyNinja]

After these extra considerations, I cannot feel diferent from what I already expressed early. The Wii is not been exploited as it should.

I think this is pretty much universally agreed upon. I mean, some of the games look worst than GC games!!!

 

[Capeta]

The GDDR3 is sourced from both Samsung and Qimonda, formerly Infineon. Yes the part# indicates 650MHz.

 

[Metal_Spirit]

jpeg is compression.

regarding A-RAM; the PS2 still had to use it's main memory for audio and disc cache, and even if it was only a small amount (2-3MB), we're talking about a small amount of system memory to begin with. A-RAM still played an important role, and it's part of the reason why GC games had quicker loading than PS2.

Yes, JPEG is compression (what was I thinking?). Sorry about that. S3TC is not that much better than JPEG. In average is 19% better than Jpeg at 85%.

So. let me re-write: A 640*480 85% jpeg should be around 150 kb. We could fit 166 of those in 25 MB.
Anyway, I doubt 25 MB of textures are required at once, and streaming is a reality.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So. let me re-write: A 640*480 85% jpeg should be around 150 kb. We could fit 166 of those in 25 MB.
Anyway, I doubt 25 MB of textures are required at once, and streaming is a reality.

1) textures tend to be square. You're looking at 512x512 textures.
2) Jpeg has no relevance at all. A 512x512 32 bits per pixel image (standard texture format) is 1 MB in size without any compression
3) You can fit 25 of those textures into 25 MB RAM, without mipmaps. With mipmaps, for each 512x512 textre, you also have a 256x256 texture, a 64x64, a 32x32 and a 16x16 (or whatever the limit is). Thus a 512x512 texture with mipmaps is about 1.35 MB. You can fit 18 of those into 25 MB RAM.
4) With 4:1 compression, you can fit 74.
5) You'll be looking to use several textures per model, for light maps, diffuse maps, specular maps etc. So with four textures per model, you can get 18 different models on screen with 25 MB RAM for textures
6) That RAM also has to be used for other things besides textures, such as model data, code, other game data, etc.

For these reasons, lower quality textures are used. Lower resolution, and lower bitdepths.

 

[Teasy]

This 650 Mhz GDDR 3 was in the Wiigeepeeyou thread, and for what I read, of i remember it right it´s a Nec memory, and exactly equal to the ones that equip the 360.

But hey... There were more than 100 pages on that thread and I haven´t read all, so I assumed this as true. Am I wrong???

As far as I know the 64mb GDDR3 is rated at 700Mhz max, but what speed its actually running at is the big question. I'd say it has to be running at a multiple of the system LSI (Hollywood). So that's either a multiple of 2 (486Mhz/3.9GB/s) or a multiple of 2.5 (607.5Mhz/4.86GB/s). A multiple of 3 would be 729Mhz so that's out of the question.

 

[Teasy]

6) That RAM also has to be used for other things besides textures, such as model data, code, other game data, etc.

For these reasons, lower quality textures are used. Lower resolution, and lower bitdepths.

Well Wii does have 88MB of system memory, and he's only talking about 25MB for textures, so you then have 63MB for all the things you just mentioned (game code ect). If anything devs would likely use more for textures and less for game code ect.

 

[Ooh-videogames]

So what is that first picture? Did anyone else look at it? (as I said I can't see it in my browser).

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/Bootyluva/us007176919-019.jpg

Here's a better link.

The patent this image is from was filed Oct 2005, the same image can be found in a another patent filed by Nintendo dating back to Nov 2000. First I thought it was just the old TEV, then I remembered seeing this image.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/Bootyluva/us007034828-013.jpg

When we were all clamouring to see any specs information, I was doing some patent searches. The image above, orginally just displayed the TEV at the bottom.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/Bootyluva/us006980218-009.jpg

Here its missing.

This looks like it may be the TEV.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/Bootyluva/us007176919-021.jpg

 

[Metal_Spirit]

From www.computerweekly.com
-Quote-
To give an idea of how S3TC can help to improve the quality of 3D applications, in an 8Mb frame buffer, an application running at 800x600x16 double-buffered with a 16-bit z-buffer will have 5.25Mb of memory left over for texture storage. If S3TC is used, those 5.25Mb will be able to store the equivalent of 31.5Mb of texture. Furthermore, you could switch to triple buffering and still have the equivalent of 26Mb of texture storage.
-End Quote-
This means, that in my example, 25 MB of Ram can hold up to 125 MB of textures.

From www.segatech.com
-Quote-
Thanks to S3TC's texture compression, the Gamecube's 1 MB of texture cache can hold the equivalent of 6 MB of 24-bit textures. That's roughly 8 x (512 x 512) 24-bit textures, or 32 x (256 x 256) 24-bit textures for example
-End Quote-
This means the Wii can hold in it´s 3 MB Cache 18 Mb of 24-bit textures.
Also, if we use the 25 MB of Ram I mentioned (leaving all the rest for other use), it can hold 150 Mb ram. That's roughly 200x (512 x512) 24-bit textures or 800 x (256 x 256) 24 bit textures.

So, although my previous example was not correct, I was not very far from the truth. Considering that gamecube had 24 Mb for all (ARAM is too slow to be considered for graphics and general processing), the Wii has 3.6x more memory (88 MB). So, If we double the space used for processing, we will end up with more than 44 Mb for textures. More than the total memory the PS2 ever had for everything. So, where are the great textures this memory can allow?

But values are not important. If it can hold 1, 2 or 5000 textures it´s not relevant. But the fact is that the memory that can be devoted to them is larger than ever was on the previous generations consoles, and yet, I saw no game with great textures for 480p.

This is quite hard to understand. Textures could be better than the ones used in Xbox and shurely better than all we ever saw in PS2. But, where are they?

 

[Metal_Spirit]

BTW, i´m talking about storing compressed textures in memory. I am aware that textures have to be decompressed for processing.

Btw, anybody know the speed of the WII DVD drive? How many X is it?

 

[fearsomepirate]

So, where are the great textures this memory can allow?

Answer: They're in the exclusive games. Games developed for the PS2 use 4-bit textures, which S3TC doesn't compress. What you should be noticing in Wii exclusives, if you're looking for it, is that the textures have richer color than in most PS2 games.

As far as we know, the Wii does not have a 3 MB texture cache. It likely has a 1 MB texture cache with 2 MB frame/Z, just like Gamecube.

 

[Ooh-videogames]

I've seen the textures you're looking for in Red Steel. You have to be nearly 50% deep into the game, you also get a display of the console fill rate. Also, if your playing on a HDTV, you should be playing on the standard setting. Using the Dynamic setting has a contrast to high for 480p, causing textures to appear somewhat washed out. I realized this after returning to Excite Truck and moving to the standard setting.

 

[The_legend_of_drtre]

I´m appreciating your thoughts on the matter. But I would go for unoptimized engines and specially lack of study on the textures.

Although stretched textures are giving us an incorrect perspective of things, we must consider that our HDTV 32" or superior TV´s will also stretch the image a lot.
On a 4:1 compression (and I believe more can be achieved, like 6:1), we can get 352 Mb of textures in the Console memory. Even is not all memory is used, and we only use 25 MB, with that compression it would make 100 MB of textures, it´s a lot of space for 480p textures. In total a lot more than Xbox ever had. A optimized 640*480 jpeg image with no compression uses less than 200 kB. With compression of 4:1 we could place 500 of those in 25MB of the Wii memory. Why crappy textures then?

About the ARAM, I forgot mention it,and considerer it. That would make 40 Mb RAM, part of wich would be running at 486 standards (81 Mhz). Although better than the 32 MB from the PS2 we must considerer that only part (the 24 mb) had full potential.

But the wii has replaced the 16 mb for a brand new 64. And speed went from a lacuster 81 Mhz to a full fledge 650 Mhz DDR3 like the one used in XBOX 360. We are talking about a huge increase in ram, and specially in RAM Speed. If my calculations are correct, something in the order of aproximate 24 times faster.

After these extra considerations, I cannot feel diferent from what I already expressed early. The Wii is not been exploited as it should.

How do you know that the DDR3 in the Wii is 650mhz?

 

[StefanS]

How do you know that the DDR3 in the Wii is 650mhz?

The GDDR3 RAM chip in Wii has a maximum frequency of 700 Mhz. Check the summary on page 1. However, I haven't seen anyone releasing or divulging a specific number yet. So far all we know it could be clocked signficantly lower.

 

[Metal_Spirit]

The GDDR3 RAM chip in Wii has a maximum frequency of 700 Mhz. Check the summary on page 1. However, I haven't seen anyone releasing or divulging a specific number yet. So far all we know it could be clocked signficantly lower.

True... But what´s the point of paying for a 700 Mhz memory when you can use slower ones that should be cheaper?

In a worst case scenario I believe least it should be running at 486 Mhz, but not less. Check Teasy post on page 7 for more info.
3.9 Gb/s is an official number for bandwith in the wii, so it seems logical.

 

[StefanS]

True... But what´s the point of paying for a 700 Mhz memory when you can use slower ones that should be cheaper?

In a worst case scenario I believe least it should be running at 486 Mhz, but not less. Check Teasy post on page 7 for more info.
3.9 Gb/s is an official number for bandwith in the wii, so it seems logical.

Ehm 486 Mhz is significantly lower in my book. The 650 Mhz number is pretty unrealistic if you ask me. Maxconsole.net's specs listed the the GDDR3 as 4 GB/s peak. So the most sensible guess is probably 486 Mhz which works out to be 3.9 GB/s (Note curiously enough the BW from Hollywood to the 24 MB 1T SRAM is also listed as 3.9 GB/s and also @486 Mhz).

 

[Teasy]

I would agree with that hupfinsgack if not for the fact that Faf claims the 64MB of GDDR3 memory has more bandwidth then the 24MB of 1T-Sram. I think he said something like "The GDDR3 has a bit more bandwidth as well, kind of like the difference between the XDR and GDDR memory in PS3".

 

[wsippel]

A fairly recent Wii SDK (2.1, August 2006) leaked a few days ago, and still no hard infos? It's supposed to be somewhat incomplete, the exact technical specifications are missing, but it should be interesting nevertheless...