A question regarding NV30 and Doom 3
- Thread starter Sabastian
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Chalnoth said:
That "record number of tapeouts" was not refering specifically to only the NV30 to my knowledge, but to Nvidia's Fall lineup in general. Meaning that they will have a whole lot of different chips to announce this fall - die-shrunk MX and GL versions of the NV2x series, ultra versions maybe, nForce2, plus their next-gen products - somewhere I read that they'd announce ~12 chips this fall, which would fit perfectly with the "record number of tapeouts" statement.
NV30 has probably been only be one of those tapeouts. We pretty much know for fact that it has taped out within the last 4-6 weeks, maybe even a bit sooner, but its not unreasonable to assume that they lag behind the market-readyness of ATi's R300 by probably 1-3 months ...
This would still fit into a window of announcing it august and shipping it in september/october, wether in limited quantities or clocked below below their current internal goals we'll just have to wait and see ...
Wether that translates into an accomplishment in the longrun from ATI's side it remains to be seen (most probably even as late as NV30's first respin).
If rumours are true that R300 is on a .15 manufacturing process vs. .13um of NV30, it changes facts a lot. If R300 should turn out on .13 after all, then my hat off all the way for ATI.
Ailuros said:
Very true, if R300 were .13um then ATi would have pulled off quite an impressive stunt with R300 being so far along already, but personally I have my doubts, especially considering the relatively low rumored clockspeeds. As always, rumors are often not a good base for such arguments though, even if they're all most of us have to go by ...
Anyway, I don't expect either one of these 2 chips, R300 and NV30, to totally blow the competitor out of the water, it'll probably be a close call depending on scenario and settings. It might also be harder than ever before to directly compare the two to each other as ATi and Nvidia seem to be taking different aproaches to the speed vs. quality or better instead of faster pixels topic. Argh, if they would all just release their stuff now, the suspense is getting ever more intense.
For the record (in case someone points out to Carmack), Carmack didn't tell me he did not have a NV30. Read my post in the other thread carefully.
From what I know, it's not a case of NVIDIA "hadn't provided Carmack with a NV30" - it is simply that there was no NV30 board to provide.
From what I know, it's not a case of NVIDIA "hadn't provided Carmack with a NV30" - it is simply that there was no NV30 board to provide.
Reverend,
I always find it amazing how words that someone speaks can be and often are manipulated, added to and revised without your knowledge and then your name tacked on to it . Supposenly we humans communicate up to 90% in body language which is lacking in forums disscussions but if you really read some of the forums on the interenet you may think people are down right paranoia, mistrusting and blantantly not understanding a thing about what they just read. Old habits die hard .
I always find it amazing how words that someone speaks can be and often are manipulated, added to and revised without your knowledge and then your name tacked on to it
. Supposenly we humans communicate up to 90% in body language which is lacking in forums disscussions but if you really read some of the forums on the interenet you may think people are down right paranoia, mistrusting and blantantly not understanding a thing about what they just read. Old habits die hard .I guess really in the grand schema of things the fact that JC used the R300 over whatever Nvidia had to offer really doesn't mean that much. In fact I am sure that whenever Doom3 is released (Next year.) nvidia will have caught up to ATi.
What this is significant of though is the fact that nvidia is playing catch up to its most feared rival...ATi. No matter what anyone thinks here, the fact of the matter is nvidia was cought with its pants down around their knees.
IMHO it clearly shows ATi to be an extremely competent company with incredible talent. Further it also implies that nvidia (and their fans) can no longer claim the undisputed leader in the graphics realm.
It is good that nvidia will not develop a virtual monopoly in the high end market. Who knows mayhap nvidia will have incredible difficulties bringing the NV30 into the market faster then they thought that they would have to.
But the strange thing that I have noticed is that no matter what ATi does some cling to the idea that nVidia will definitely outperform the ATi. How do you know that?
Anyhow ATi is ahead in the game since the R300 will definitely outperform the GF4 series(and anything inbetween) and should do so for some time until nvidia finally releases the NV30.
As far as I know a 120million transistor chip(as is rumored) doesn't just have one tape out then a couple months of driver trouble shooting before it hits the market without any flaws.(Not that this really ever happens) Nvidia may have it by Christmas but....there won't be allot under the Christmas trees. They probably will have fairly low yealds at this new .13 micron process.(not to mention an incredible price tag.) However ATi may have an "Ultra" like version of the R300 ready to spoil nvidias parade...... and the cycle continues.
The more I watch and learn about this whole process the more I become interested. At any rate I am sure it will be just as exciting as it was last year.
Sabastian
What this is significant of though is the fact that nvidia is playing catch up to its most feared rival...ATi. No matter what anyone thinks here, the fact of the matter is nvidia was cought with its pants down around their knees.
IMHO it clearly shows ATi to be an extremely competent company with incredible talent. Further it also implies that nvidia (and their fans) can no longer claim the undisputed leader in the graphics realm.
It is good that nvidia will not develop a virtual monopoly in the high end market. Who knows mayhap nvidia will have incredible difficulties bringing the NV30 into the market faster then they thought that they would have to.
But the strange thing that I have noticed is that no matter what ATi does some cling to the idea that nVidia will definitely outperform the ATi. How do you know that?
Anyhow ATi is ahead in the game since the R300 will definitely outperform the GF4 series(and anything inbetween) and should do so for some time until nvidia finally releases the NV30.
As far as I know a 120million transistor chip(as is rumored) doesn't just have one tape out then a couple months of driver trouble shooting before it hits the market without any flaws.(Not that this really ever happens) Nvidia may have it by Christmas but....there won't be allot under the Christmas trees. They probably will have fairly low yealds at this new .13 micron process.(not to mention an incredible price tag.) However ATi may have an "Ultra" like version of the R300 ready to spoil nvidias parade...... and the cycle continues.
The more I watch and learn about this whole process the more I become interested. At any rate I am sure it will be just as exciting as it was last year.
Sabastian
ushac said:
Wouldn't be the first time an article was writen with infactual info. Heck nvidia management as positive as they are don't expect the NV30 till fall. Of course they said that nforce was supposed to be available in late summer last year. On the other hand it could be a legit claim. But since the R300 has made an appearence outdoing possibly their next refresh of the GF4 they had to push back the next release so that they would be able to top ATi with the NV30. Normally how nvidia works is they do a refresh of their latest product in order to top ATi but I think, like I said earlier, that nvidia was cought with their pants down and now are forced to go to their next generation. In fact I think that the GF series of cards(NV25) were pushed out the door shortly after the refresh of the GF3 as a result of the launch of the Radeon 8500. Maybe nvidia will just label the NV30 as a refresh of the GF4 familly.
Sabastian
sorry about that Reverend. I know NV30 wasn't available ironically because Matrox told me that the choices were : Geforce4, Parhelia , R300 at E3 . And carefully pointed that out when the first brouhaha went out on Doom3.
Was a strange quote from Matrox (no I'm not naming who said it) , but accurate.
Was a strange quote from Matrox (no I'm not naming who said it) , but accurate.
Doomtrooper
Veteran
ben6 said:except , Geforce4 Ti was the refresh of the Geforce3
How do you figure, how many 'refreshes' are we allowed
Geforce 3 Q1..almost Quarter 2
Geforce 3 Ti...Quarter 3-4 Refresh
New Year
Refesh Again Geforce 4 Ti
Ummm no
ben6 said:except , Geforce4 Ti was the refresh of the Geforce3
Yes, did I say different?
Yeah the whole thing is usually nvidia does a refresh of their latest core. Where now it appears the NV25 will not be getting one and it be replaced with the NV30. I think we are "on the same page" here ben...I think I am a paragraph ahead or something. Sabastian
Look, the whole refresh thing has a trend.
Since Gf1 was released
Gf1 - new part
Gf2 - Refresh
gf2ultra - refresh *2
Gf3 - new part
Gf3 overclocked - refresh
Gf4 - refresh *2
If rumors are true, the latter trio was delayed b/c Xbox launched and b/c Nv30 wouldn't of been ready by spring. So Nvidia decided not to launch GF4 instead of Gf3 ultra (they sat on the technology so to speak).
If Nv30 doesn't launch in early fall, it will break the trend.
Since rumors and trends are all we have to speculate with, I think its the wiser bet to predict a nv30 launch fairly close to the R300. (Say within a month or two)
Since Gf1 was released
Gf1 - new part
Gf2 - Refresh
gf2ultra - refresh *2
Gf3 - new part
Gf3 overclocked - refresh
Gf4 - refresh *2
If rumors are true, the latter trio was delayed b/c Xbox launched and b/c Nv30 wouldn't of been ready by spring. So Nvidia decided not to launch GF4 instead of Gf3 ultra (they sat on the technology so to speak).
If Nv30 doesn't launch in early fall, it will break the trend.
Since rumors and trends are all we have to speculate with, I think its the wiser bet to predict a nv30 launch fairly close to the R300. (Say within a month or two)
I hope Nvidia gets the NV30 done right first and then lauch the hardware with kick ass drivers. So what if ATI has a superior card for 3-6 months? If Nvidia releases too early and does a Rage128 special themselves they will only regret it latter. If they wait long enough all of us who purchase R300's may upgrade to a NV30 if it is good enough.
Sabastian said:ben6 said:except , Geforce4 Ti was the refresh of the Geforce3
Yes, did I say different?
Sabastian
Arrh,,,, some days a guys should just stay in bed..
Sorry ben you are totally correct and if anything I am reading the book upsidedown. Sabastian
Johnny Rotten
Regular
Calling the GF3Ti line a 'refresh' of the GF3 is being very, veeeeeeeeeeery generous.
Doomtrooper
Veteran
Fred said:
Wrong...every year there is a supposed NEW chip released and thats is how its been for a couple years....
1999
Geforce 1 SDR was approx in the 3rd Quarter of 1999
Geforce 1 DDR was approx in the 4th Quarter of 1999
2000 New Year-New Chip Geforce 2
Geforce 2 GTS was approx 1-2 quarter of 2000
Geforce 2 Ultra was approx third quarter of 2000
2001 New Year-New Chip Geforce 3
Nvidia Geforce 3 approx 1st Quarter 2001
Nvidia Geforce 3 TI approx 4th Quarter 2001
2002 New Year- NO NEW CHIP
Another refresh Geforce 4 Ti Quarter 1 2002
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