A question regarding NV30 and Doom 3

[Sabastian]

Now I may have missed out on some details of John Carmacks decision to use the R300 for the demonstration of Doom 3, so I am at risk of posting a silly question. However I only recall that John Carmack had said something along the lines that "R300 beat whatever Nvidia had to offer.." could it be that Nvidia had a prototype of the NV30 available for the demonstration and Carmack simply failed to mention this fact? My question is, is it possible or within reason possibly that Nvidia had in fact provided the NV30 to Mr. Carmack for the Doom 3 demo but the R300 was able to outperform it regardless? Would anyone know besides Nvidia or John Carmack? If I remember correctly the original showing of Doom 3 was done with the GF3 wouldn't nvidia wanted in the worst possible way to keep Mr. Carmack on side by using Nvidias next generation card the NV30 to ensure that they are in fact the more technologically endowed?

Sabastian

 

[flf]

The discussion was quite lively, and Hellbinder ate crow.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1101

 

[ben6]

Nvidia hadn't provided a "NV30" to John Carmack. He had a optimized (overclocked) Geforce4 Ti4600 +new drivers (presumably) , Parhelia and R300 prototype to choose from. I'm sure if Nvidia had a NV30+ drivers for it ready they would have sent one to Carmack.

Interestingly, Nvidia has confirmed that NV30 is their fall product "3rd quarter (July-September) which is their traditional time to release a fall card. (usually) Geforce1 October 1999 ,(because of Taiwan earthquake) , Geforce2 Ultra August 2000, Gefore3 Ti500 October 1, 2001 . So a September/October release fits in with their traditional release dates ..

 

[Tahir2]

Funny.. on Rage3D's forum some kid is trying to argue that JC was using an RV250 and not an R300!

Hehe.. so it is really... NV30 vs RV250

 

[Sabastian]

The discussion was quite lively, and Hellbinder ate crow.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1101

OMG, sorry I had to move and lost my internet connection for a month + and missed out.....dam. Sorry for the bother.

Sabastian

 

[Tahir2]

ben6 me gonna nitpick but i believe it was just a normal GF4 Ti4600 that anyone can buy... maybe a Golden Sample or Ultra version but I dont think it was 'overclocked' just to be given to JC.

 

[ben6]

misae , you know you're right . The Reverend clarified it in his interview with JC sorry...

 

[Doomtrooper]

Nvidia hadn't provided a "NV30" to John Carmack. He had a optimized (overclocked) Geforce4 Ti4600 +new drivers (presumably) , Parhelia and R300 prototype to choose from. I'm sure if Nvidia had a NV30+ drivers for it ready they would have sent one to Carmack.

Interestingly, Nvidia has confirmed that NV30 is their fall product "3rd quarter (July-September) which is their traditional time to release a fall card. (usually) Geforce1 October 1999 ,(because of Taiwan earthquake) , Geforce2 Ultra August 2000, Gefore3 Ti500 October 1, 2001 . So a September/October release fits in with their traditional release dates ..

That Contradicts this article then...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...id=73&e=9&u=/zd/20020530/tc_zd/896996

Also on Monday, Nvidia raised its financial outlook for the just-ended quarter, and Huang said he sees continued market share gains this year leading to more growth. Some of that will come from a new graphics chip slated to arrive in August.

The new chip will be manufactured on Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co.'s latest 0.13-micron manufacturing process, Huang said. Huang did not reveal the name or specific features of the chip, but did say it was a fundamentally new architecture from the GeForce 4 Titanium introduced earlier this year.

 

[Sabastian]

Nvidia hadn't provided a "NV30" to John Carmack. He had a optimized (overclocked) Geforce4 Ti4600 +new drivers (presumably) , Parhelia and R300 prototype to choose from. I'm sure if Nvidia had a NV30+ drivers for it ready they would have sent one to Carmack.

Hi Ben and thanks for the interest. But may you explain to me how it is that you know in fact that a prototype of the NV30 was not provided? Nvidia knew full well that ATi would have the R300 available. Why would nvidia not indeed trump ATi at all cost? If the NV30 had not even taped out yet... then how will they have it available for their regular schedualed fall launch.(With a little luck I suppose.) Could it be that the NV30 was slower then its counterpart the R300 or is that just a silly suggestion?

Sabastian

 

[Tahir2]

.... because John Carmack told him quite clearly (and in type) that it was a GF4 Ti 4600.

The rumours spread that it may have been an NV30 because of the fact that MSNBC (?) misquoted John Carmack.

Edit: by 'him' I am talking about Reverend. Also Chalnoth, another forum member, managed to get a similar reply via email from John Carmack.

See the previous thread!

 

[ben6]

Because Carmack said so. . There really isn't a debate anymore on the subject. He compared a Geforce4 to a Parhelia to a R300.

Doomtrooper how is a card that's coming in August contradictory to a July-September timeframe? Seems to be perfectly fitting the timeframe . Derek Perez at Computex said 3rd quarter, 3rd quarter is July, August September

In many of the Cg materials there's clear reference to a NV30.

 

[Doomtrooper]

So a September/October release fits in with their traditional release dates ..

October would be 4th quarter..your words not mine

 

[Hellbinder]

The discussion was quite lively, and Hellbinder ate crow.

It was a mighty tasty crow to... with just a hint of lemon...

 

[Sabastian]

But I think you miss my point to a degree. If nvidia had in fact provided the NV30 for the demo and as par for the course NDA had been signed Carmack may be forced to say that it was only a GF4Ti4600 and none would be the wiser. Given this very possible course of events could it have been that the R300 beat out the NV30 for the demo of Doom 3? I am not saying that the course of events you describe with nvidia having only a 5 month old product available for this demo is wrong, my question is could it have been possible that the R300 beat the NV30 or is that a silly question? Further if nvidia did not have the NV30 taped out then they certainly are dragging their feet.

Sabastian

 

[ben6]

Doomtrooper, well, they're not going to miss their traditional fall dates(Dan Vivoli (their VP of marketing) said it's their fall part last week ON THE RECORD so I can comment on it). Traditionally they release a spring product and a fall product . Also traditionally, their cards aren't available the same day they announce it (though they were close with GTS and Ultra) .

I'm not going to comment further, just pointing out what they've done before and what they've said on the record .

 

[ben6]

Hehe , here we go again. Sebastian , Nvidia hadn't provided JC with a NV30. I'll leave it at that

 

[Sabastian]

Doomtrooper, well, they're not going to miss their traditional fall dates(Dan Vivoli (their VP of marketing) said it's their fall part last week ON THE RECORD so I can comment on it). Traditionally they release a spring product and a fall product . Also traditionally, their cards aren't available the same day they announce it (though they were close with GTS and Ultra) .

I'm not going to comment further, just pointing out what they've done before and what they've said on the record .

Ok thanks for the input anyhow. I would be surprised to see the NV30 this fall if they are just now working with alpha hardware that carries the rumored 120 million transisters.

Sabastian

 

[KimB]

Ok thanks for the input anyhow. I would be surprised to see the NV30 this fall if they are just now working with alpha hardware that carries the rumored 120 million transisters.

Sabastian

It's apparently a fair bit further along than that right now. Obviously, not even nVidia knows right now if they'll be able to ship in volume by September, but there is evidence that supports them being quite far along.

For one, approximately one month ago, there was a statement I read somewhere that the NV30 had a "record number of tapeouts." I believe chips usually ship 4-5 months after tapeout, so that puts them right in line for an august release.

The real question we should all be asking is, will ATI attempt to release much sooner? Additionally, it is possible that the NV30 will be in short supply for a couple of months after release.

 

[jb]

For one, approximately one month ago, there was a statement I read somewhere that the NV30 had a "record number of tapeouts." I believe chips usually ship 4-5 months after tapeout, so that puts them right in line for an august release.

For the record they said that They (meaning nVidia) had a record number of tape outs. No break down was ever given. Keep in mind they have new nForce, die shrunk parts, xbox and nV30s all at the same time..

 

[Geeforcer]

But I think you miss my point to a degree. If nvidia had in fact provided the NV30 for the demo and as par for the course NDA had been signed Carmack may be forced to say that it was only a GF4Ti4600 and none would be the wiser. Given this very possible course of events could it have been that the R300 beat out the NV30 for the demo of Doom 3?

Sabastian, what exactly are you getting at? Correct me if I am wrong, but are you implying that Carmack might have *lied* 4 times (To Rev, to Chalnoth, to Shacknews and on /.) about the Nvidia card that he had access to?