A Possible Solution to the Hard Drive Problem?

[Sean*O]

The solution you present doesn't really address the problem from the customer's standpoint, only works out for MS.

People have basically 2 problems with this situation:

1. HDD not standard means almost no games will be optamized to take advantage of the HDD

2. MS has pulled a 180 and is not delivering on their promises to the customer of standard HDD, wireless controller, and HDTV output. Can't really do LIVE without a HDD either.

The solution you suggest does not address either of these issues.

MS has to deliver on their promises, else they are in trouble.

 

[Megadrive1988]

for the next-next gen (Xbox3, PS4) we need standard mass storage instead of a harddrive. no moving parts, very fast, solid state, able to approach the speed of very slow RAM. this will supplament the ~4 GB or so RAM memory in those consoles.

the question is, what mass storage device (in development) is quantaum leap in performance beyond the best conventional harddrives ?

 

[valioso]

The solution you present doesn't really address the problem from the customer's standpoint, only works out for MS.

People have basically 2 problems with this situation:

1. HDD not standard means almost no games will be optamized to take advantage of the HDD

2. MS has pulled a 180 and is not delivering on their promises to the customer of standard HDD, wireless controller, and HDTV output. Can't really do LIVE without a HDD either.

The solution you suggest does not address either of these issues.

MS has to deliver on their promises, else they are in trouble.

sure it does... if there are no MC's but instead you have to buy the HDD at $50 for game saves.. then effectively everyone is going to have one. At which pt it would be easier for developers to put on the box that you need the HDD attached for the game to run as is supposed to

 

[pc999]

Some games can require a particular hardware. Not all, if they all require a particular hardware and this one is not include in the original package, it won't be easy (If even possible) to get away with it from a consumers right laws and association point of view.

No multi platform game would need HDD to run just , to saves or specialy features in games , then exclusives games can use HDD to full extent.

 

[Guden Oden]

People have basically 2 problems with this situation:

1. HDD not standard means almost no games will be optamized to take advantage of the HDD

That's just an assumption. Besides, we don't know yet how well the machine runs without a HDD. It might not be much of a problem, and the gain having one might not be that large after all. It remains to be seen what is the truth.

2. MS has pulled a 180 and is not delivering on their promises to the customer of standard HDD, wireless controller, and HDTV output.

When did they ever really promise this? Companies always leave their backs clear in case they need it. Graphics chip speed in the original xbox wasn't 300MHz, and it wasn't 200MHz in GC either, but did those spec changes amount to a hill of beans in the end anyway?

MS has to deliver on their promises, else they are in trouble.

I think you overestimate the importance of the lunatic internet fringe by a rather large factor. MOST people (read: 95% in the end I would guess) won't even know MS at one point said the harddrive would be standard on all x360s. Nor would they care all that much either, because they'll still be able to play games and enjoy themselves with their new gaming system.

Some people need to just chill. This isn't a problem!

 

[jvd]

for the next-next gen (Xbox3, PS4) we need standard mass storage instead of a harddrive. no moving parts, very fast, solid state, able to approach the speed of very slow RAM. this will supplament the ~4 GB or so RAM memory in those consoles.

the question is, what mass storage device (in development) is quantaum leap in performance beyond the best conventional harddrives ?

Perhaps its already here .

Nintendo is using flash ram 512megs i believe in the ns5 . So perhaps when the ps3 / xbox 3 / ns6 comes out 1-2 gigs of it would be very cheap.

I dunno on the other hand perhaps by 2010 when the other systems are released they will be using hvd which has insane transfer speeds and we may not need a hardrive .

 

[Mr_Puffy]

I think people just need to chill here, get a grip, and gain some perspective on the situation. Anyone who was going to buy x360 because it was supposed to have a harddrive as standard wasn't buying the console for the right reason anyway. Especially if it was because it was supposed to have a harddrive, and PS3 wasn't.

Wow, who are you god? My reasons for picking a console are just as valid as your reasons and its elitist of you to think otherwise. Maybe you can share with us what the right reasons are for us to pick a console (or in other words your reasons).

 

[Sean*O]

That's just an assumption.

Well the only evidence that exists supports that assumption, in that every single time there has been an add on to a console, be it a CD-ROM as with TG-16 or Sega Genesis, or a HDD as with PS2, there has been relatively negligible support for it. Why would a developer spend the money to create a game optimized for a smaller sector of the market? In general, they don't, and it has been proven several times already. I don't know why you would deny that?

When did they ever really promise this?

I have personally listened to audio interviews of J. Allered where he quotes that X360 comes standard with HDD, wireless controller, and will be HDTV & Xbox live ready out of the box. If you look around, I'm sure you can find something yourself.

I think you overestimate the importance of the lunatic Internet fringe by a rather large factor. MOST people (read: 95% in the end I would guess) won't even know MS at one point said the hard drive would be standard on all x360s.

I see you then agree that MS did say the HDD would be standard?

In any case, I think the Time Magazine story on X360 mentioned something about it, and they have a circulation of about 4.5 million weekly from what I was able to dig up. Time is not exactly a magazine that caters to hardcore gamers either.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101050523,00.html

 

[pc999]

People, even if games arent programed to use a HDD if it is not standart do you think that will appear maps (and not only) editores (at least a little more complex than TS ones which are pretty very, very weak), like already are little communittys in XB. Why make a feature that can not even reach 75% of users, and that is a thing that adds a lot of value, fun and longevity, this is the kind of feature that really should be.

It is not even about what already exist, but what could exist IF HDD is standart.

The same to the headset (see my sig).

 

[Inane_Dork]

We hold these truths to be self-evident...

Wow, who are you god? My reasons for picking a console are just as valid as your reasons and its elitist of you to think otherwise. Maybe you can share with us what the right reasons are for us to pick a console (or in other words your reasons).

For most people, video games are the reason to buy video game consoles. Of course, I can't speak for Guden.

 

[Mr_Puffy]

We hold these truths to be self-evident...

For most people, video games are the reason to buy video game consoles. Of course, I can't speak for Guden.

Exactly and I think an hdd standard would make for better video games. Now you may not and that’s your prerogative but that does not make mine any less valid.

 

[pharmer100]

Another benifit of making a seperate hard drive the standard storage device instead of memory cards is you can actually make the consumer feel happy about having to cough up for it as well(or at least happier than having to buy a a $40 memory card - and you have to buy something if you want to actually enjoy your purchase!!!)

I remember buying the P2 and then having to pay for them memory card - which basically meant I couldn't afford another game (which to be fair wasn't a great problem with the Ps2 launch line up!!). Memory cards are a real pain to have to buy and I really resent having to buy them.

Now if consumers have to buy a hard drive instead for a little bit more money they get so much better value for it.

Its so much bigger than the memory card - much better value for money and I never have to buy another one. (I had to buy 2 memory cards for the gamecube and I have only but about 5 games for it in total!)

You can load it up with content - making even bette value - i.e. demos of all the A1 xbox titles and 360 titles. Microsoft would hopefully make more sales of software out of it too.

+ all the other features - it brings

I seriously can't see how anybody would choose a memory card (expensive piece of plastic) versus a slightly higher price for the harddrive (which could be loaded with hours of extra content for us..and basically free advertising for microsoft/games companies).

More to the point has anybody got a better option to sort out the problem aside from " shut up and lump it".

 

[jvd]

Exactly and I think an hdd standard would make for better video games. Now you may not and that’s your prerogative but that does not make mine any less valid.

People claimed with the ds that the stylus would be useless and that no one would take real advantage of it and well that is wrong . Many games use it and some of them use it in unquie ways that change gameplay and the ds is not even a year old .

The problem i see with the xbox is that it wasn't the standard. The ps2 wasn't and so devs didn't dive into the hardrive as much. Even first party games barely made us of it . Not because there was no use for it . But because they weren't told to make real use of it .

Sadly i think its something they are going to miss out on and i'm upset because i felt it was important however i will still pick up the console because there are games i want to play on it

 

[Inane_Dork]

Exactly and I think an hdd standard would make for better video games. Now you may not and that’s your prerogative but that does not make mine any less valid.

You can, of course, think what you like. That does not put everything on an equal plane, however. I used to think that single guys went to convents to find wives (Sound of Music). No one agreed with me, and my opinion was less valid. I could have, of course, put that thinking into practice, but I would have found out quickly that my "equally valid" opinion simply doesn't work as well as someone else's "equally valid" opinion.

Just sit back and examine for the next couple months what you're really missing. There's nothing to lose from doing so. If the games look great and play great anyway, maybe the HDD really isn't very important. I'm not telling you you're wrong, because that's the wrong paradigm. I'm just advocating continual re-evaluation to see if your thinking is still accurate.

Even first party games barely made us of it . Not because there was no use for it . But because they weren't told to make real use of it .

Putting in hardware and then telling developers to make use of it is the wrong thing to do. It's basically the same as putting extremely high FLOP ability into the CPU and then telling developers to make interesting games out of it. The key is did the developers really want that piece of hardware and did they want it in a way that required it.

 

[jvd]

Putting in hardware and then telling developers to make use of it is the wrong thing to do. It's basically the same as putting extremely high FLOP ability into the CPU and then telling developers to make interesting games out of it. The key is did the developers really want that piece of hardware and did they want it in a way that required it.

I've never heard of a dev complaining about more power in the console . I never heard a dev complain about the stylus .

Devs get payed to make interesting games out of the hardware they are given . If you put out a new controller your going to tell them to make use of the new buttons and they will. If you add in another 256 megs of ram your going to tell them to make use of it and they will.

I don't see why it hsould be any diffrent

 

[pharmer100]

Insane dork - the majority of the people have a problem with the lack of standard HDD have a very valid reasoning for thinking that way - emperical evidence. The are usually current xbox owners who have experienced the benefts of the hard drive for the past 4 years..and seen what the lack of a standard hdd has meant for its use in the playstation 2. Xbox users have seen what it has meant from a financial point of few as well - we have never had to buy a load of expensive memory cards.

You could be right, in the next genn maybe the HDD won't be quite as important - a lot of people (including myself) assumed oblivion was only coming to the 360 because of the standard HDD - not the case.

However, I still thinks some thing are not going to be possible or will be possibe... at a high cost. For example, the real world stucure of Halo that the HDD allowed - I remember walking out miles above an area I had fought in hours earlier and see the results of the battle still there, the ships I had shot down etc. I thought that was amazing. I wonder if Halo 3 is going to have that if the HDD is not standard?

Why take the chance anyway if there is such an easy solution to avoid it.

 

[Sean*O]

Mr. Puffy's point is certainly valid.

Why even argue that games would not have the potential to be better on the X360 if the HDD was standard and developers used it to it's full potential?

Even if it just cut loading times or made larger seamless areas of game play possible, the games would still benefit from it.

The only 'opinion' I see is people believing that games will be good enough without the HDD, which they might, but it's still a fact that games /could/ benefit from it's use.

It's unrealized potential. That's why it's such a letdown. Some developers and some games will still use it and push the system to the max, but less now than had it been kept as standard equipment.

It's also MS following Sony's lead instead of sticking with the original direction taken with Xbox 1.

 

[Mr_Puffy]

You can, of course, think what you like. That does not put everything on an equal plane, however. I used to think that single guys went to convents to find wives (Sound of Music). No one agreed with me, and my opinion was less valid.

When the Xbox first came out I used to believe it was the best gaming console at that time, despite the vast majority disagreeing. And I still feel that way but I’ll leave the validating to you.

 

[Mr_Puffy]

And it’s not even a Sony vs. MS vs. Nintendo thing with me; I just want companies like Square Enix to be able create a game without fear that it will flop because to many people lack the hardware to play it or have to try and sell it bundled with a hard drive like they had to do with the ps2. I mean if that’s not a valid opinion then whatever I guess I’m invalid.

 

[Inane_Dork]

I've never heard of a dev complaining about more power in the console . I never heard a dev complain about the stylus .

Devs get payed to make interesting games out of the hardware they are given . If you put out a new controller your going to tell them to make use of the new buttons and they will. If you add in another 256 megs of ram your going to tell them to make use of it and they will.

I don't see why it hsould be any diffrent

You're taking this in about every way but the right one. The question is this: did developers want the hard drive for new gameplay options? And I have no reason to believe they did. Now, if you have some real proof here, please, share. I'd love to learn on this topic.

And the current theory, that MS didn't push HDD use which would have been a signature of the Xbox and distinguished it while adding sales, is not even believable. I can't believe you would seriously suggest that. Next you'll tell me they didn't care if any Xbox game used pixel shaders.

Insane dork - the majority of the people have a problem with the lack of standard HDD have a very valid reasoning for thinking that way - emperical evidence. The are usually current xbox owners who have experienced the benefts of the hard drive for the past 4 years..and seen what the lack of a standard hdd has meant for its use in the playstation 2.

Hey, I'm right there. I really appreciate having (basically) infinite store for game saves. And I appreciate that MS basically ate that cost for me.

I'm right there except for the PS2 part. I've watched it pretty closely, and I honestly have no idea what you're implying is a big gap between the Xbox and PS2 due to the standardness of the hard drive in the former. The PS2 didn't just have a non-standard HDD, it had a really expensive (comparitively), really late and really unpromoted HDD. Those make the HDD for the PS2 basically not attractive to any PS2 owner. So I really don't think it's fair to make a direct comparison.

And besides, the PS2 got loads of great games and didn't suffer from horrendous loading times. Hey, if that was underpriviledged gaming, everyone must've been rich.

You could be right, in the next genn maybe the HDD won't be quite as important - a lot of people (including myself) assumed oblivion was only coming to the 360 because of the standard HDD - not the case.

Me too, back then. And, BTW, I'm not arguing the HDD will be less important. I'm saying its standardness basically never was important. Near everything I can think of the Xbox HDD was used for could have been used for if it was not standard.

However, I still thinks some thing are not going to be possible or will be possibe... at a high cost. For example, the real world stucure of Halo that the HDD allowed - I remember walking out miles above an area I had fought in hours earlier and see the results of the battle still there, the ships I had shot down etc. I thought that was amazing. I wonder if Halo 3 is going to have that if the HDD is not standard?

That's a good question. I can't tell for sure, but if Blinx's use of the HDD is a good measure, Halo's Prince of Persia will come out and show that you can do it without the HDD and make a better game anyway. Think of it this way. Oblivion tracks the state of 1000 NPCs at all times, without the HDD. So I think the signs point to "yes" but it will depend on Bungie.

Why take the chance anyway if there is such an easy solution to avoid it.

Cost. The solution is easily seen but not easily underwritten.

Why even argue that games would not have the potential to be better on the X360 if the HDD was standard and developers used it to it's full potential?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not arguing against that. Heck, if the headset were standard, games might benefit too. The theory is sound.

The problem is that the theory already didn't work, regardless of how optimistic it sounds. I know. I bought it circa 2001. Arguing for very nebulous potential such as this is hard compared to the very real cost for it. And then to add in that it already didn't really work before?

Pretty much every poster child for HDD use can be seen in X360 titles. Loadless level streaming? Saint's Row. DLC? Oblivion. Caching? No one has said for sure, but Bethesda's words imply a "yes" here. Custom sountracks? The X360 has music features 10x that of the Xbox. Persistent details in levels? Oblivion. Rewinding the game? Full Auto. I'm sure I missed a couple, but the gulf between standard and not standard is really not that big.

There is a very real worry that these things will be supported less so than on the Xbox, and I share that. But at this point, it's just a worry. There's no fact to it yet.

When the Xbox first came out I used to believe it was the best gaming console at that time, despite the vast majority disagreeing. And I still feel that way but I’ll leave the validating to you.

That's my opinion as well, actually.

If X360 games come out and they lack from the HDD issue, by all means, don't buy one. I'll be right there with you. I just think it best to wait and see what effect this has instead of swearing it off this early. That's all.