50% of troops won't re-up

[Joe DeFuria]

Bush supporters should have been thinking about the effects before the war was started.

Ever stop to think that Bush supporters DID think about the effects, and decided it was still something that had to be done?

 

[Legion]

To hunt down gays and bring them to Bush's personal torture chamber, don't you know.

Please do not mock the truth. I was there! I know it to be true! That is where they taught me the horribly lie that sexual orientation isn't genetic....

 

[kyleb]

ya idea defending your country is what sells most people on the miltary, when they find out they are being used for ulterior motives it tends to break the apeal of service.

and what would that alterior purpose be?

the opposite of defense obviously; aggression.

 

[Druga Runda]

Bush supporters should have been thinking about the effects before the war was started.

Ever stop to think that Bush supporters DID think about the effects, and decided it was still something that had to be done?

yes, Bush and his supporters - were thinking, I am sure, the only problem is that their thinking lead to worse situation than when Saddam was there. Instead of focusing on problems at hand they created mega problem to divert attention 8)

 

[Joe DeFuria]

yes, Bush and his supporters - were thinking, I am sure, the only problem is that their thinking lead to worse situation than when Saddam was there.

By what measure?

 

[Druga Runda]

yes, Bush and his supporters - were thinking, I am sure, the only problem is that their thinking lead to worse situation than when Saddam was there.

By what measure?

infrastructure in worse condition than before the war
guerillas fighting the occupiers and those Iraquis who are for democracy - ppl didn't have that with Saddam
danger of civil war
too expensive to rebuild Iraq
low troop morale
danger of Iraq to transform into Iran like "Islamic republic"

 

[Vince]

infrastructure in worse condition than before the war

Bullshit, prove it. Electricity levels are above prewar levels, all hospitals and schools are operating. What exactly are you refering to?

guerillas fighting the occupiers and those Iraquis who are for democracy - ppl didn't have that with Saddam

No, you just had the government torturing and killing it's own citizens.

danger of civil war.

There is allways a danger of civil war in any nation-state.

too expensive to rebuild Iraq
low troop morale
danger of Iraq to transform into Iran like "Islamic republic"

Weak, especially the expense one which is utterly ridiculous when you consider that the countries you're talking about are United States and it's strategic defense on the line vis-a-vis Iraq as a client state and Iraq which has massive oil reserves and short-term debt potential.

 

[pax]

Aha! I knew the US wanted to screw my country. I just didnt know it was literally...

 

[Legion]

ya idea defending your country is what sells most people on the miltary, when they find out they are being used for ulterior motives it tends to break the apeal of service.

and what would that alterior purpose be?

the opposite of defense obviously; aggression.

No, what would be the alterior motive?

 

[Druga Runda]

infrastructure in worse condition than before the war

Bullshit, prove it. Electricity levels are above prewar levels, all hospitals and schools are operating. What exactly are you refering to?

this http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3B59D75D-EF48-4805-8597-4A8819EFF585.htm

Ten months after the occupation of Iraq in April 2003, the electricity service has still not been fully restored.
The Iraqi capital, Baghdad, still suffers irregular electricity flow. Each district in the capital has to live without electricity for at least six hours a day.
The situation is in stark contrast with what happened after the 1991 Gulf War which left the main Iraqi electrical power stations in ruins.
It took the then Iraqi government three months to restore electricity to its pre-war level.

for example

and for a western source
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1154661,00.html

Now, nearly a year after the beginning of the coalition invasion of Iraq, something is beginning to be created, and it doesn't look like anything that anybody quite anticipated. It is more complex, more difficult, more beset by difficulties and tragedies than anyone who supported the invasion ever allowed before the war.

guerillas fighting the occupiers and those Iraquis who are for democracy - ppl didn't have that with Saddam

No, you just had the government torturing and killing it's own citizens.

which is by no means good, but better have them overthrow Saddam by themselves and you assisting them - where US & the world failed Iraquis in 1991 - than coming in wiht the calvary killing 10000+ civilians as collateral damage and destroy what was left from infrastructure and leave them with 1/2 chaos.

I am not saying that Saddam was good, but neither is an invasion.

danger of civil war.

There is allways a danger of civil war in any nation-state.

- and especially one like Iraq right now, not really a suprise.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/25/iraq/main602138.shtml

The Iraqi Governing Council will likely ask the United Nations to return to Iraq to help break an impasse over how to pick the new government due to take power from U.S. administrators on June 30, a council member said Tuesday.

Sharply divided over demands from Shiite Muslim and Kurdish members and undermined by worries over legitimacy, the U.S.-picked council members have been unable to agree on a method for picking the government or on central issues of sharing power supposed to be included in an interim constitution.

A top U.N. envoy, Lakhdar Brahimi, said Monday that holding elections before June 30, as Shiite leaders seek, is impossible. But he insisted a provisional government must be formed in a way accepted as legitimate to all sides, warning that otherwise ethnic and religious tensions in Iraq will increase.

too expensive to rebuild Iraq
low troop morale
danger of Iraq to transform into Iran like "Islamic republic"
Weak, especially the expense one which is utterly ridiculous when you consider that the countries you're talking about are United States and it's strategic defense on the line vis-a-vis Iraq as a client state and Iraq which has massive oil reserves and short-term debt potential.

ummm why is than the money running out faster than anticipated, with US national debt hitting the ceiling for the first time AFAIK, troops morale needs no explanation and the danger of "Islamic Republic" when US leaves is even more real.

 

[Vince]

Ten months after the occupation of Iraq in April 2003

Way to use current sources and your western source states nothing specific or even within the same realm.

I need to run now, but later I'll find the statements which stated electricity passed pre-war levels over a month ago.


The rest of your responce was pure conjecture and I see no reason to respond to it.

 

[Clashman]

Iraqi power and water generating ability only briefly was brought up to pre-war levels as a headline grabber last October. And I'd be willing to bet that a fair amount of what has been regenerated is going directly to U.S. military bases.

As of today, Iraq's electric levels are at about 80% of the pre-war level.
http://www.electricityforum.com/news/aug03/iraqpower.html

Strock said his teams, along with 39,000 Iraqi electrical workers, were trying to rebuild an antiquated electrical system to increase Baghdad's power-generating ability to its prewar level of about 4,000 megawatts by the end of July, from the current 3,200 megawatts.

 

[Clashman]

Iraq and Afghanistan were also cited as two of the thirteen countries most likely to fall into genocide, which would indicate that the posibilities for major civil war are significantly greater than in most other states.

 

[Clashman]

And before anyone charms in and points out that that article mentions Baghdad, and not Iraq as a whole, I'd like to not that I'm pretty sure they meant the entirety of Iraq, based on the fact that when Coalition sources claimed they had surpassed pre-war electricity levels, they claimed pre-war electricity for the entire of Iraq at 4200 megawatts, and the article I mentioned said that they hoped to get to "around 4000" by July, so unless the entire rest of the country was running on 200 megawatts, I'm pretty sure the link is valid.

Here's the original Coalition claim.
http://www.softcom.net/webnews/wed/ay/Qiraq-electricity.Rqi7_DO3.html

 

[epicstruggle]

Druga Runda, im no fan of aljazere or the guardian. I thought about using cnn, but im sure some will have a problem with that. SO i went to bbc and got some stuff from them:

source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2002/conflict_with_iraq/default.stm#
look its are getting better. itll take time, better than sadam building more palaces and torture chambers. oh and lets not forget the job creation engine that is "mass grave digging".

later,
epic

 

[RussSchultz]

I had no idea today was Aug 2003. (Look at the address...I don't hink that story was written today. for example, same story: http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntm33849.htm different date; also attributed to the NYT on Jul 8, 2003 here: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/08/international/worldspecial/08POST.html)

If you bother to look at current information, from the source, you'll see we're at greater than 100% of pre-war levels. (but only about 5% greater).

http://www.cpa-iraq.org/essential_services/electricity_graphs/power_highlights.html

Any proof of your "fair amount of whats being generated going directly to US military bases"? No? Didn't think so.

 

[Clashman]

You skipped the caption, which mentioned that many of those reconstruction projects exist in name only. The companies contracted to do them won't work until security improves. You also missed the rest of the slides, (although granted, most of these are probably six months old anyways).

Mortality rate

The number of deaths under suspicious circumstances or car accidents has risen sharply since the end of the war.

This is due to the lack of law and order and attacks on the coalition and Iraqis working with it. Human rights groups have criticised the US military for inadequate investigations into Iraqi deaths resulting from coalition fire.

Water and electricity

Improvements in the water and electricity supply have been offset by disruption caused by sabotage. A consistent, clean water supply depends on a good supply of electricity to drive the pumps.

Some days, Baghdad only gets two to four hours of electricity. Water pumping stations are still being looted and targeted by saboteurs.

Health

Water treatment and raw sewage on the streets are an enormous health risk. This problem is closely related to lack of clean water and the electricity supply. Water pumping stations are still being looted and targeted by saboteurs.

Fuel shortages, oil production

There are fuel shortages in all areas in Iraq, though the situation has been improved by CPA imports of gasoline, liquid petroleum gas and diesel.

Humanitarian organisations are warning of a crisis this winter due to fuel shortages.

Cost of living and earnings

Before the war, 60% of Iraqis depended heavily on government food hand-outs. Humanitarian organisations say the situation has only got worse. They report much higher unemployment and disruption to the food distribution programmes.

Prices for some goods are up, but not all. Earnings for those in work are up dramatically.

Well, at least wages are up, (and it looks like Iraq maybe seeing more people turn Vegetarian, which is good news for me).

 

[Clashman]

If you bother to look at current information, from the source, you'll see we're at greater than 100% of pre-war levels. (but only about 5% greater).

http://www.cpa-iraq.org/essential_services/electricity_graphs/power_highlights.html

Actually Russ, those are peak numbers, and 7 day averages of peak numbers. They aren't the average.

Also, if you look down below where they break it down by governorate, some of the numbers are inconsistent, with average output exceeding peak. And average output for all of them for today only adds up to just under 3300 MW anyways.

 

[kyleb]

ya idea defending your country is what sells most people on the miltary, when they find out they are being used for ulterior motives it tends to break the apeal of service.

and what would that alterior purpose be?

the opposite of defense obviously; aggression.

No, what would be the alterior motive?

man, Legion, that is a tough question for me to answer. first you going to have to tell me; what the hell does "alterior" mean anyway? i can't seem to find it in the dictionary.

 

[Clashman]

Actually, just noticed that they list the total number of Mw Hours. Take that number, divide by 24 hours in a day, and you get:

For today:
3,795 Mw
For Yesterday:
3,687 Mw
2-23-04
3,755
2-22-04
3,752

Getting closer, but still not quite there yet.