45 nm is coming

[Paul]

So while it will still work and be produced as a 65nm chip at first, it will be bloody expensive until the shrink, and cause risks of production shortage etc., banking on the assumption that it will significantly outperform what would be considered a "safe" 65nm design.

Bingo. I have been saying this in MANY topics. It was that SCE and Toshiba would push BE so hard, they would cross the thresh hold into bad yields. That and the gigantic losses per PS3 sold, they seem to want to get the thing down to 45 ASAP, again Me and a few others have been saying this for a while.

 

[jvd]

I'm sorry, jvd, but you seem altogether too quick to take SI at face value on the PSX issue (with the majority of their "evidence" only available for a fee of $1000...). Only Deadmeat has been quicker than you to proclaim "Sony lied!!!" on this matter, without all the evidence in the case being available.

I'm sorry but there is no proof that they haven't lied and so I niether believe that they lied or that they are telling the truth.

But with such speculation on current processes how can you expect me to take press releases such as this one as the truth .

 

[Panajev2001a]

I'm sorry, jvd, but you seem altogether too quick to take SI at face value on the PSX issue (with the majority of their "evidence" only available for a fee of $1000...). Only Deadmeat has been quicker than you to proclaim "Sony lied!!!" on this matter, without all the evidence in the case being available.

I'm sorry but there is no proof that they haven't lied and so I niether believe that they lied or that they are telling the truth.

But with such speculation on current processes how can you expect me to take press releases such as this one as the truth .

While the Sony/Toshiba process may not meet the letter of the International Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors (ITRS) 2003 it is comparable with the leading edge Intel process in terms of gate dimension. The highly anticipated Intel 90 nm device announced last fall at the Intel Developer Forum is reported to have a gate length of 45 nm. This is a little larger than the gate length listed in the ITRS, which benchmarks the polysilicon gate length at 37 nm.

In addition the Sony device uses an advanced two stack low-k dielectric structure. The combination of this dielectric process and the smallest transistor seen so far by Chipworks makes this one of the most advanced processes in volume production today.


This conclusion contradicts findings reported last week in the press that the Sony PSX device was manufactured in a 130 nm process.

[...]

http://www.chipworks.com/news/11SonyPSX.htm

 

[kaching]

so I niether believe that they lied or that they are telling the truth.

So I'm just misreading your comments in this thread? There you clearly seem to have made up your mind.

But with such speculation on current processes how can you expect me to take press releases such as this one as the truth .

Because this is only an announcement of intention with regard to an R&D project, not an announcement of a shipping product. What's to question? That they don't really want to try to get to 45nm?

 

[jvd]

to panja yes i have read that . How about everything else that goes in to define a process .

as for the last reply .

I had but then other things had come up and so now i'm not on either side as there is not enough info.

But if i can't believe they are doing something now that they claim how can you expcet anyone to take something 4 years in the future as proof . And yet listen to wild claims made by others on this info . IF they can make wild claims then I can certianly announce valid concerns .

 

[Vince]

to panja yes i have read that . How about everything else that goes in to define a process.

Like what else? Seriously, list the things out for us all which define a process technology. This topic [technology verse implimentation] has been covered time and time again, it's getting old.

My reply to Deadmeat applies to you as well unfortunatly:

What does that have to do with anything? They clearly fabricated a device which contains a plurality of gates and constructs which aren't physically capable of being mass produced on anything less than a 90nm production line utilizing (IIRC) 193nm lithography equiptment. The 130/150nm process with it's 248nm equiptment just isn't physically capable of creating such physical constructs reliable and in quantities necessary for mass production. Period.

Density is an implimentation dependant feature. It will vary with each ASIC and vary within each region of an IC, it isn't a function of anything important to this debate except being upper bounded/limited by the smallest feature the process/lithpgraphy equiptment can create (which is known to be ~45nm). And Chipworks has clearly proved that Sony's EE+GS contains features which are consistent with 90nm and it's been in production since last Fall. Deal with it.

 

[nobie]

My point is, Cell @ 45nm will be the same as Cell @ 65nm, only smaller. The chip (atleast the one going into PS3) is designed for the 65nm process.

I believe what Panajev is implying is that Sony could design the chip to the point where 65nm yields will be really bad, similar to what they did with GS@25micron.
So while it will still work and be produced as a 65nm chip at first, it will be bloody expensive until the shrink, and cause risks of production shortage etc., banking on the assumption that it will significantly outperform what would be considered a "safe" 65nm design.

I think most consoles at launch aren't "safe" designs, by that I mean they are expensive and lose money for the manufacturer. Eventually manufacturing costs drop below sale prices and the loss stops. I don't see this as anything out of the ordinary.

 

[Brimstone]

I still doubt the PS3 will come out anytime soon. Even if Microsoft launches late 2005, Sony can damage the xbox2 system launch by releasing system specs that are monstorous. For Microsoft launching in 2005 has some hazards because they could anger their current fan base by launching so soon and the backwards compatiblity issue still looms over Microsofts head.

My guess is Sony will take .65 nm and use that for the PS2, the PSP, and CELL for Linux servers. Alpha kits for the PS3 will probably be fabbed on .65 node, but the actual console will contain chips from .45 nm at launch. The SOI eDRAM (FBC) should allow for higher clocked chips.

 

[passerby]

I believe that a key team member from Sony in the Cell team has publicly revealed in Famitsu that the Cell project ends in Spring 2006, where upon products will start shipping. Adjust your timetables please.

Which BTW is a good idea, since final exams end in February.(or is it March?)

Of course I won't be unhappy if they shipped in '05, except that no one seems to have received any info yet - contrary to XBox "proposed hardware" already circulating among devs for... 2 months?

With all due respect, 45nm is all well and good, but the main concern should be software, API and libraries. Any rumblings about the PS3's programming model yet? MPI? OpenMP? pthreads? Or "manually" implemented pipelines?(OUCH)

 

[notAFanB]

Sony 'definition of 90nm process products is in doubt ergo, if the same degree of PR is involved here for the investors, excuse me if I'm not particularly exited about this.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Sony 'definition of 90nm process products is in doubt ergo, if the same degree of PR is involved here for the investors, excuse me if I'm not particularly exited about this.

You are calling in Toshiba and IBM in that: see it is not that easy... ooh they lied as they are new to the thing you see...

Also, Chipworks demonstrated what Sony and Toshiba already clarified which contraddicted what SI tried to demonstrate.

 

[Paul]

My guess is Sony will take .65 nm and use that for the PS2, the PSP, and CELL for Linux servers. Alpha kits for the PS3 will probably be fabbed on .65 node, but the actual console will contain chips from .45 nm at launch. The SOI eDRAM (FBC) should allow for higher clocked chips.

Doubtfull. Remember, Sony, IBM and Toshiba will be mass producing at 65 nm with a output of 15000 wafers per month come 2005.. If PS3 were to use exclusive 45 nm BE's, they would not mass produce on 65 like they say they are. Pointless no? Unless Sony plans to create hundreds of thousands of developers kits.

Also... I don't think East Fishkill is being upgraded to 45 anytime soon as Sony just dropped some major cash on it to create the 65 nm lines.

PS3 IC is based around the bleeding edge of 65 nm, they will push it till it screams, they are setting themselves up for the future with 45 though, as they wan't to get PS3 IC on that process ASAP.

 

[Panajev2001a]

ony just dropped some major cash on it to create the 65 nm lines.

Lines that will be built with 45 nm upgrades in mind IMHO.

 

[PC-Engine]

45 nm is coming

Yes, and Intel, NEC, UMC, TSMC, etal will be there too so why is this news? :?

 

[Panajev2001a]

45 nm is coming

Yes, and Intel, NEC, UMC, TSMC, etal will be there too so why is this news? :?

PC-Engine, nobody said a word: go back to sleep, it was a bad dream for you, just a bad dream.

 

[PC-Engine]

*yawn*...goes back to sleep...

 

[Deepak]

45 nm is coming

Yes, and Intel, NEC, UMC, TSMC, etal will be there too so why is this news? :?

Bec'se it relates to consoles!

 

[PC-Engine]

I said why is it news not why is it in the console forum

 

[Deepak]

I said why is it news not why is it in the console forum

I say why post Intel/NEC/UMC/TSMC news (in this forum) when it won't have any impact on next gen consoles whereas this news will have an impact....

 

[PC-Engine]

...because there is no news to begin with since everyone will have 45nm anyway not to mention it's been known for awhile that Toshiba and SONY will switch to 45nm in the future. Maybe everytime Nintendo says they'll release a successor to GCN, we should post it here? What do you think?