3D Artists/Experts help me spot the diferences :p (Uncharted render)
- Thread starter Metalmurphy
- Start date
I've spent quite a lot of time with looking at both lowpoly normal mapped heads and highpoly heads while I've been working on them. So I'd say I can tell it out of experience... Normal mapping looks good but just can't substitute real geometry.
Actually there's also a world of difference between a simple highpoly head - subdivided to 50-100 thousand polygons - and a PRMan rendered image of a subdivision surface that's been tesselated into subpixel-sized micropolygons.
There's probably a scientific/mathematical explanation to this too, something like even though the normals may point to the same direction, the actual point on the surface still isn't where it's supposed to be and will catch the light differently.
And also, even a normal map with a resolution as high as 2048*2048 will lack the fidelity of an actually smooth surface...
But just try to look at the nostrils, the corners of the mouths, the eyelids - the shading is quite subtle there, which you just can't get with normal mapping.
Personally, I can't see any clean contours on the ingame head, as all the images so far are far from clean, most of them are scans or grabs from compressed videos...
Maybe even more; if it's the ingame head that's been subdivided just two times, that'd make the difference 16x (each step quadruples the number of faces). But it's probably thre divisions, making it 48x as many polygons...
Hi guys,
I stumbled upon this thread when I was checking out the responses to my posting. I wanted to clear up any confusion here since I've noticed its been getting a bit heated at times.
so to answer your question, the new image is a render in mental ray. It is not an in game asset. It was made as a benchmark to see what we could achieve in real time. obviously you guys have seen the real time versions and will be seeing more soon.
The render uses the high res model made from scratch in zbrush. there was no scanning of a head or texture maps. The mesh is probably around 500k polys in the render. the in game version is no where near that. However, the in game version uses the same size maps as the render and is based off the same geometry obviously.
the fact that people are arguing I guess means I'm doing my job well enough for people to think its the same I've tried very hard to get rid of the edges so everything looks and feels high res and smooth.
can't wait for you guys to see more in the future! We are all excited about this game!
if you have any other questions I'll try to answer anything I'm allowed.
-Rich
I stumbled upon this thread when I was checking out the responses to my posting. I wanted to clear up any confusion here since I've noticed its been getting a bit heated at times.
so to answer your question, the new image is a render in mental ray. It is not an in game asset. It was made as a benchmark to see what we could achieve in real time. obviously you guys have seen the real time versions and will be seeing more soon.
The render uses the high res model made from scratch in zbrush. there was no scanning of a head or texture maps. The mesh is probably around 500k polys in the render. the in game version is no where near that. However, the in game version uses the same size maps as the render and is based off the same geometry obviously.
the fact that people are arguing I guess means I'm doing my job well enough for people to think its the same
I've tried very hard to get rid of the edges so everything looks and feels high res and smooth. can't wait for you guys to see more in the future! We are all excited about this game!
if you have any other questions I'll try to answer anything I'm allowed.
-Rich
Hi guys,
I stumbled upon this thread when I was checking out the responses to my posting. I wanted to clear up any confusion here since I've noticed its been getting a bit heated at times.
so to answer your question, the new image is a render in mental ray. It is not an in game asset. It was made as a benchmark to see what we could achieve in real time. obviously you guys have seen the real time versions and will be seeing more soon.
The render uses the high res model made from scratch in zbrush. there was no scanning of a head or texture maps. The mesh is probably around 500k polys in the render. the in game version is no where near that. However, the in game version uses the same size maps as the render and is based off the same geometry obviously.
the fact that people are arguing I guess means I'm doing my job well enough for people to think its the same
can't wait for you guys to see more in the future! We are all excited about this game!
if you have any other questions I'll try to answer anything I'm allowed.
-Rich
Yes well done Rich...both look great. You know what I'm going to ask...how long is soon? Approximate is fine. This month?
well the marketing train is moving! pretty much every month there is going to be some kind of preview i believe somewhere. in terms of gameplay.. well.. i'm not sure when we are going to release that to the public.. but the ship date is coming up fast! so regardless it wont be too long of a wait!!
its really all up to sony how they plan on releasing information.. i can't really talk too much about anything. they really want things to be tactical.
trust me, i can't wait to post more of my work as well! it sucks working on things for so long and having to keep them quiet
-Rich
its really all up to sony how they plan on releasing information.. i can't really talk too much about anything. they really want things to be tactical.
trust me, i can't wait to post more of my work as well! it sucks working on things for so long and having to keep them quiet
-Rich
Mr. Domino
Regular
I wouldn't be suprised if we see more of this game between the 11th and 13th of july.
archangelmorph
Veteran
Definitely some great work there Rich!
You had me fooled!
You had me fooled!
well the marketing train is moving! pretty much every month there is going to be some kind of preview i believe somewhere. in terms of gameplay.. well.. i'm not sure when we are going to release that to the public.. but the ship date is coming up fast! so regardless it wont be too long of a wait!!
its really all up to sony how they plan on releasing information.. i can't really talk too much about anything. they really want things to be tactical.
trust me, i can't wait to post more of my work as well! it sucks working on things for so long and having to keep them quiet
-Rich
The guys at Ninja Theory seem to be having the same. But Sony have generally been very tactical...and I think it's working well (HS blow out with Heroes, and then production trailer, and then images etc.)
We really want to see gameplay! Or something moving! We want to see the animation
*bursts* But good luck with it all!
Very nice modelling! Can you explain 'benchmarking' a bit more? Did you load the full-resolution model into the PS3 and scale it down until you hit a complexity it could work with?
Hi guys,
I stumbled upon this thread when I was checking out the responses to my posting. I wanted to clear up any confusion here since I've noticed its been getting a bit heated at times.
so to answer your question, the new image is a render in mental ray. It is not an in game asset. It was made as a benchmark to see what we could achieve in real time. obviously you guys have seen the real time versions and will be seeing more soon.
The render uses the high res model made from scratch in zbrush. there was no scanning of a head or texture maps. The mesh is probably around 500k polys in the render. the in game version is no where near that. However, the in game version uses the same size maps as the render and is based off the same geometry obviously.
the fact that people are arguing I guess means I'm doing my job well enough for people to think its the same
can't wait for you guys to see more in the future! We are all excited about this game!
if you have any other questions I'll try to answer anything I'm allowed.
-Rich
You're wonderful Rich Nathan is the best in-game model that i ever see from i live in this world
Please tell me that when i move the camera around his face i will see the same detail and not only in the cut scene.Tell me yes and i love you forever
thanks for the compliments guys!
Shifty Geezer- by benchmarking I meant it like look-dev. trying to find the look of the character before we invest so much time making the in-game version. the in-game version was built on top of the high res. re-topologized to be low enough for games. Then a normal map was crated to get all the high detail of the original model. hopefully this makes sense.
luke76- Thanks man! and yes, you will be able to move the camera around his face and see the same detail in game. right now there is no difference between the game res and cinematic. so whatever res you see in the cinematic is there in game. we might upres for the cinematic but who knows.. right now all the detail is holding up pretty nice so we'll see!
Npl- we decided to go for a painterly feel for the models. not 100% photo realistic. this decision was made to get away from the creepy uncanny valley feel of a lot of other games that just throw photo's on a model and use scans for heads. so yes, its not 100% perfect, its a little stylized and "artistic" if you will. I'm hoping that comes through with the model.
we also have to deal with real-time hardware, so yes, skin wont look 100% like real skin. we do our best to simulate what we can.. its still a game remember
-Rich
Shifty Geezer- by benchmarking I meant it like look-dev. trying to find the look of the character before we invest so much time making the in-game version. the in-game version was built on top of the high res. re-topologized to be low enough for games. Then a normal map was crated to get all the high detail of the original model. hopefully this makes sense.
luke76- Thanks man! and yes, you will be able to move the camera around his face and see the same detail in game. right now there is no difference between the game res and cinematic. so whatever res you see in the cinematic is there in game. we might upres for the cinematic but who knows.. right now all the detail is holding up pretty nice so we'll see!
Npl- we decided to go for a painterly feel for the models. not 100% photo realistic. this decision was made to get away from the creepy uncanny valley feel of a lot of other games that just throw photo's on a model and use scans for heads. so yes, its not 100% perfect, its a little stylized and "artistic" if you will. I'm hoping that comes through with the model.
we also have to deal with real-time hardware, so yes, skin wont look 100% like real skin. we do our best to simulate what we can.. its still a game remember
-Rich
Last edited by a moderator:
@Rich: Sorry if it sounded like I was putting down your work. If you look at the images in my post you see theres 1 CG and one "RealTime" / "Reallife" shot - I was putting down the later as the CG (your work) looks way better
Im sure ND`s game will look stunning, I know their past games did.
Im sure ND`s game will look stunning, I know their past games did.
ShootMyMonkey
Veteran
Am I right in surmising that in both realtime and CG models you do some texture layering and blending (beyond simply using detail textures on top of base textures and so on)? It seems like there are some localized differences in effective resolution and also in texture compression artifacts.
For instance, the stubble on the MR render of Nathan and the hair on the Elena render both show some artifacting (and notably looking to be the identical artifacts as the realtime models, though I can't speak for Elena since there haven't been many closeups of her in-game face, but her MR render shows it a little more glaringly presumably because of the area the texture covers), but they also show some points in texturing where things don't really look identical compared to the realtime counterparts. Though some of that (particularly detail normals) can be covered for with the luxury of half a million polys, I'm sure.
For instance, the stubble on the MR render of Nathan and the hair on the Elena render both show some artifacting (and notably looking to be the identical artifacts as the realtime models, though I can't speak for Elena since there haven't been many closeups of her in-game face, but her MR render shows it a little more glaringly presumably because of the area the texture covers), but they also show some points in texturing where things don't really look identical compared to the realtime counterparts. Though some of that (particularly detail normals) can be covered for with the luxury of half a million polys, I'm sure.
Metalmurphy
Newcomer
Hi guys,
I stumbled upon this thread when I was checking out the responses to my posting. I wanted to clear up any confusion here since I've noticed its been getting a bit heated at times.
so to answer your question, the new image is a render in mental ray. It is not an in game asset. It was made as a benchmark to see what we could achieve in real time. obviously you guys have seen the real time versions and will be seeing more soon.
The render uses the high res model made from scratch in zbrush. there was no scanning of a head or texture maps. The mesh is probably around 500k polys in the render. the in game version is no where near that. However, the in game version uses the same size maps as the render and is based off the same geometry obviously.
the fact that people are arguing I guess means I'm doing my job well enough for people to think its the same
can't wait for you guys to see more in the future! We are all excited about this game!
if you have any other questions I'll try to answer anything I'm allowed.
-Rich
Wow oO When i made this thread the last thing i expected was a reply from the actual 3D Artist of the model
Indeed you are doing a great job, to be honest i really couldn't find a difference (reason of this thread
) except perhaps the top part of the right ear. The ingame model is fantastic specially considering all the facial animations its getting.Anyway thanks for all the info, that cleared up everything i needed to know
Good luck with the project, although i'm sure you guys are gonna do just fine
ShootMyMonkey- they are both using the same textures, however, not the same material. the material in the render is specific to mental ray and the in game material is a proprietary skin shader. This will definetly make it look a little different.
there is also texture compresion as you stated which kinda mushes a lot of the detail together resulting in less variation and an almost "flatter" look. It sucks, but its games.. something we all have to deal with to an extent.
The render also uses heavy multi pixel filtering which allows you to see everything. we dont have that really in games. because of that things are not as crisp and also blur together a bit when shown on screen.
so to answer your question, yes, it will look a bit different. in the end you really have to tweak things for what you see on screen and not really worry as much about what you achieve in a render. the render was done before the in game model was made to give us a bar to strive for. obviously because of the compression, real time shaders, less accurate lighting, etc, we can only hit it to a certain extent.
I am happy with what we are achieving. I think in the future you will start seeing the same level from in game that you would from a render. we are almost there.. just not 100% yet.. it'll probably be the next generation or the one after.. not too far off remember, pc also has a huge advantage.. we cant upgrade video cards on a ps3
hopefully this helps answer your question!
-Rich
there is also texture compresion as you stated which kinda mushes a lot of the detail together resulting in less variation and an almost "flatter" look. It sucks, but its games.. something we all have to deal with to an extent.
The render also uses heavy multi pixel filtering which allows you to see everything. we dont have that really in games. because of that things are not as crisp and also blur together a bit when shown on screen.
so to answer your question, yes, it will look a bit different. in the end you really have to tweak things for what you see on screen and not really worry as much about what you achieve in a render. the render was done before the in game model was made to give us a bar to strive for. obviously because of the compression, real time shaders, less accurate lighting, etc, we can only hit it to a certain extent.
I am happy with what we are achieving. I think in the future you will start seeing the same level from in game that you would from a render. we are almost there.. just not 100% yet.. it'll probably be the next generation or the one after.. not too far off
remember, pc also has a huge advantage.. we cant upgrade video cards on a ps3 hopefully this helps answer your question!
-Rich
well the marketing train is moving! pretty much every month there is going to be some kind of preview i believe somewhere. in terms of gameplay.. well.. i'm not sure when we are going to release that to the public.. but the ship date is coming up fast! so regardless it wont be too long of a wait!!
its really all up to sony how they plan on releasing information.. i can't really talk too much about anything. they really want things to be tactical.
trust me, i can't wait to post more of my work as well! it sucks working on things for so long and having to keep them quiet
-Rich
Darn it Diamant I'm dying to see your work and the game now!!! My most anticipated game this year for sure.
Similar threads
- Locked
