2006: Battle for the Living Room

Carl B

Friends call me xbd
Legend
This has been something industry folk have been talking about for quite a long time, but I feel as if in 2006 the sea-change will finally come and 'convergence' will begin to occur in earnest in the place it matters most: the living room. I've been thinking a lot about the various players in this game lately, and though I could write a report/analysis about it several pages long just myself, I wanted to get a sense of what others thought about the strategies of the various players. We'll get a sense of what's to come at CES in a couple of days, so I wanted a thread for some 'clean' speculation before the fact.

The Big Four I see going into this 'battle' next year are Apple, Intel, Microsoft, and Sony. Certainly if I've left someone out, be sure to toss them in. What I see right now though is:

Apple supposedly is doing an x86 mini-Mac version that will have TiVo like functionality, seemless transfer of content (including said video content) to the various iPod/Video iPod players, and in my estimation wrapped in a near-silently cooled, stylish, not too expensive package.

Advantages: Apple has already broken through the wall in the consumer consciousness from computer maker to maker of chic consumer electronics. iPod tie-ins obvious bonus. People who have bought into the whole IPod craze in general are not afraid to spend some cash.

Disadvantages: Not many spring to mind, but Apple's Mac mini is set to be heavily cloned next year from the x86 side of things, and Intel is working on the reference designs for both, further reducing Apple's edge possibly since Intel's fighting in the same space.​

Intel is just all over the whole thing. First of all, they are wrapped up into Apple's strategy, they will probably represent 75% of the chips and chipsets to ship in the HTPC's based on MS' Vista initiative, AND to be revealed this CES, they have their own ViiV initiative. So, I don't know what to expect from ViiV, but supposedly consumer electronic levels of ease and a step beyond the standard media center (and Vista eventually) setups we're used to. Now I'm not sure what the level of crossover between Vista/Media Center and ViiV will be, but obviously there will be some.

Advantages: Almost like a country that not only waging it's own war, but also supplying arms to ally and foe alike, Intel is set to profit as long as the HTPC concept breaks into the mainstream. In addition, their marketing budget for ViiV is supposedly going to be pretty enormous.

Disadvantages: HTPC's are still kind of the purvue of the rich and/or techie, and Intel has to break down walls in order to get the mainstream interested, branding effort or no. The cost of the machines and public awareness will both play a factor, as will perceived need. Afterall does someone that already owns TiVo and a DVD player also need ViiV? Intel will make the case for itself shortly.​

Microsoft has already dipped it's toes in the whole thing with media center, and now with the 360. But it doesn't get *real* until Vista comes out. Media Center right now is quite niche and 360 is of course considered primarily by the masses to be a games machine. Vista will launch in December (supposedly) but up until then MS will be able to have their agenda carried out by proxy via Intel and the media center/HTPC movement. Microsoft will be fine either way, as they still rule the roost on the PC side of things, but a strong and decisive showing in the living room could really secure their future. A lot will depend on the uptake levels of the consumer, going from their current OS to Vista, and the uptake levels of the media center concept come the end of 2006, beginning of 2007.

Advantages: The 360 gains appeal the greater the penetration of media center/Vista PC's due to it's media extender functionality. Two years from now, could provide the basis for an inexpensive set-top box, essentially for media center expansion, while increasing and promoting revenues from game sales, and vice versa. As for Vista, will provide the backbone for the HTPC computers being made and marketed by other companies. Regardless of living room efforts, will still likely dominate the PC space. Vista supposedly will also be 'revitalizing' the PC as a gaming platform.

Disadvantages: Is somewhat dependent on the efforts of PC partners to determine it's success in the living room. December launch date not too late in and of itself, but chance of slip always exists. Success on Vista's part does not necessarilly mean that competitors Apple and Sony are not also gaining strong footholds, with the goal of ultimately wresting the consumer from Windows.​

Ironically Sony will be in the same boat as MS and Intel above through it's VAIO line of computers, where they are very active in the media center space - but I'm of course focusing on PS3 here. Sony has the advantage of a massive install base, brand recognition as a consumer electronics maker that should be getting a decent boost this year if Stringer's comments on a big marketing push are too be believed, and of course 'trojan horse' like features such as blu-ray movie playback and gaming. Now the online and content distribution side of the equation is actually an unknown for PS3 at this point, so there's no guarantee yet that they're really vying for the same market in the same ways; but we have to assume they are. If not, well then it's still there for gaming revenue as well as a trojan for blu-ray success.

Advantages: Sony's install base with PS2 and origins as a consumer electronics maker should make the idea of a PS3 purchase for purposes beyond gaming fairly approachable to the average consumer. Will be supported by a large blu-ray and general Sony marketing campaign. I'd say Linux on PS3 is an advantage as well, but that's too much of an unknown to really address.

Disadvantages: MS' 360 potentially blunts Sony's thrust with PS3's main 'trojan' feature, gaming. Their respective successes are not completely inverse to one another, but on some level must be. In addition recent moves by MS indicate they will use the home theatre PC's as a foil for blu-ray by pushing HD-DVD. Blu-ray has the edge right now, with lot's of different factors playing in, but this attack from the HTPC front keeps HD-DVD in the fight, and potentially dulls another of PS3's draws, thus dulling blu-rays appeal, etc etc...​

Anyway ok I've rambled on here quite a bit, and didn't write everything I could have, all the contingencies etc..., but nonetheless I think it'll be an interesting year in terms of what happens in the living room. Certainly if anyone has any further thoughts or comments or guesses or whatever, toss them into the mix!
 
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The true battleground will be the pocket, not the living room.
 
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An interesting analysis...
But I have to give the edge to the "Wintel"-alliance..

I believe that their expertice and their wealth will give them the egde over Sony/Apple.
Both MS and Intel dwarfs Apple/Sony in profits/cashflow and have a enourmous know-how within the biz. Money can buy what they lack....

anything can happen but I see Wintel as the stronger parts..
 
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Lazy8s said:
The true battleground will be the pocket, not the living room.

Lazy8s your going to have to expand on that, because right now it's a little vague. :) Do you mean Cell phones PDA's and such? I don't think 2006 is the year for that - in a way it's already had it's first year in 2005 I feel, and maybe 2007 will be a year of further shift. Pocket's already getting decently converged though.
 
Don't underestimate the cool-appeal of Apple. If they can get a box hooked up to your television that "just plain works" and doesn't require any special knowledge or tinkering by the user, then they could stand a fair shot at making serious headway.

Oh, and you're forgetting a wildcard: Google

Read Robert Cringley's articles about the "Google Box" that they're working on and think about what it could mean. Google has the momentum and capital to fly past everyone if they execute correctly. At least for content delivery... as I don't think they'll be competing as a platform... just as the delivery service. And Sony, Apple, Microsoft, and all the other big players are really competing for content delivery, not on platform. Sure, iPods are making Apple a bundle, but they stand to make a lot more money from iTunes and video subscriptions than the hardware itself. *That* is the future they are positioning to fight over.
 
flf said:
Don't underestimate the cool-appeal of Apple. If they can get a box hooked up to your television that "just plain works" and doesn't require any special knowledge or tinkering by the user, then they could stand a fair shot at making serious headway.

Oh, and you're forgetting a wildcard: Google

Read Robert Cringley's articles about the "Google Box" that they're working on and think about what it could mean. Google has the momentum and capital to fly past everyone if they execute correctly. At least for content delivery... as I don't think they'll be competing as a platform... just as the delivery service. And Sony, Apple, Microsoft, and all the other big players are really competing for content delivery, not on platform. Sure, iPods are making Apple a bundle, but they stand to make a lot more money from iTunes and video subscriptions than the hardware itself. *That* is the future they are positioning to fight over.


Haven't heard about the Google-Box, but of course if they're in the game also, they're in the game also.

As for the money, of course it's in the distribution, but since the consumer will be drawn to the 'gadget' rather than the distribution model, and we have to assume proprietary distribution models from the players - at least initially - I do think that the initial battle will be fought over value-added deatures, approachabilitym etc.. on the 'box' front.

I agree on Apple of course, thus their inclusion.
 
EndR said:
An interesting analysis...
But I have to give the edge to the "Wintel"-alliance..

I believe that their expertice and their wealth will give them the egde over Sony/Apple.
Both MS and Intel dwarfs Apple/Sony in profits/cashflow and have a enourmous know-how within the biz. Money can buy what they lack....

anything can happen but I see Wintel as the stronger parts..

I give 'WinTel' the edge as well, but in truth I see them more as allies of convenience these days rather than the Wintel of the past. Microsoft is happy to deal with AMD, and even IBM now, and Intel is happy to deal with Linux, arch-nemesis Apple, and whoever else.

But I don't view it as a zero-sum game though.

Just as TiVO has stuck it to the HTPC/DVR market thus far, I don't see why Apple or some play by Sony can't gain traction. Any industry player that is not stamped out completely may live to fight another day (Apple fits the bill here perfectly). Obviously Sony's PS3 will sell, and I assume any Apple effort would gain at least *some* install base. Of course Intel and MS have the coffers to fight battle after battle, so I never see them as losing, regardless, but that's not an automatic win either.

I'm interested in seeing what goes down at CES, to say the least... :cool:

But yes, Intel and Microsoft I see as profiting regardless in this thing.
 
I disagree with the Sony disadvantage viz. Blu-Ray and HTPC. This is almost entirely irrelevant; unless MS blocks BD-J in Vista…

I think Sony’s greatest problem is its inability to get over the squabbling between its divisions which often lead to DRM issues and proprietary stances. This inevitably results in poor implementation of connectivity and network features in their CE line.

The main reason for Kutaragi’s demotion was his attack on these policies.
 
avaya said:
I disagree with the Sony disadvantage viz. Blu-Ray and HTPC. This is almost entirely irrelevant; unless MS blocks BD-J in Vista…

I think Sony’s greatest problem is its inability to get over the squabbling between its divisions which often lead to DRM issues and proprietary stances. This inevitably results in poor implementation of connectivity and network features in their CE line.

The main reason for Kutaragi’s demotion was his attack on these policies.

I don't think the Kutaragi demotion had anything to do with that, unless there's some piece of news out there in the public space which I've missed. It had more to do with the Idei/Stringer/Ohga drama than anything else, plus the focus they wanted him to place on PS3. Ostensibly Kutaragi was kicked off the board because the rest of the board was as well, a condition of Idei's for 'fresh' direction and a free hand for his successor. I think though a lot of it had to do with his position as Ohga's 'favored' successor, and Idei wanting to remove Ohga's influence from the boardroom.

The blu-ray disadvantage I wrote you can take how you like, but I was simply saying that in an environment where MS is willing to actually subsidize the cost of an HD-DVD drive to have it included in a Vista PC as opposed to a blu-ray drive, that has to be taken to be at least a thorn of sorts in Sony's side. For my part I still foresee a blu-ray victory, but the level of 'blood' drawn I feel will depend in large part to how much traction blu-ray can gain before Vista's launch and MS' subsidization efforts begin, if they truly are serious about subsidizing it.
 
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Nice write-up, Xb. I would actually think that Microsoft does have the edge, just because they've been in the game hard now for years. (Add to it CableCard support for HTPCs coming next year, Vista, IPTV stuff that MS is pushing, and a few other things I can't think of off the top of my head...) And note that I said Microsoft, not Wintel, since my HTPC runs on an AMD chip ;)

But Apple is positioned to "iPod" the living room. Mp3 players similar to the iPod were around for a couple years in the Windows space but never got any traction. It took Apple to mainstream that. The similarities seem to exist with the HTPC/DVR/"living room device" space.

The only difference is the complexity, with regards to tuner cards and different cable providers, TV Guide integration, etc, such that Apple may not be in a position to just jump in and will have to continue with baby-steps.

For what it's worth, I actually don't give much credence to a Sony position, because in this regards they are still just another CE device manufacturer as they have for years. The PS3 doesn't change that. Blu-ray doesn't change that. Their Vaio line doesn't either...

And someone mentioned Google. I would only counter with: what was the last Google product you bought? I don't consider them in the game at all.

.Sis
 
The only one of these devices I could see moving in large numbers in the next few years is the PS3. The rest of them sound pretty niche. Even gimmicky in some cases. Google box? Come on.

Godd thing I'm going to CES next week so I can get a clearer picture of all of this :D
 
interesting discussion.

Related to HTPCs, I believe there are two hurdles apple/ms etc need to get over to become successful.

First, I feel they will need to brand themselves differently. Microsoft, Apple as names are already far too deeply embedded into public concious to translate all that well. Consider brand names like Harmon Kardon, Denon, B&W, Marantz etc, all AV equipment manufacturers. Would the typical owner of these brands put a 'Microsoft', 'Gateway', 'Dell' or other box next to one of these? I know it's rediculous, but no, they wouldn't.
That said if there was a Harmon Kardon MC box that just happened to run off of windows media centre (however rebranded) there is a lot of room for success. Get in bed with pioneer, yamaha, etc, for the mid range market and sharp, sanyo, philips, etc for the general consumer side... Then you really start to push the market.
Let each of these companies rebrand themselves with their own stlye, but keep it all under one standardized underlying system (with it's own brand - say, MediaConnect or something suitably generic and vauge). Similar to the various HT standards already out there.

Secondly, MS/Apple/Whatever need to start knocking, or pushing, on the doors of Sky, Comcast, etc. otherwise these companies are the ones that will silently walk away with HTPC all to themselves.

Which is more important I'm not actually entirly sure. First you can consider the install base of existing sky/comcast/etc users, and it's pretty spectacuarly big. Second their existing products are generally pretty rubbish. But at the same time, consider how many people have a VCR.. this number would be considerably higher than the former, and in the long run, MS/Apple/etc to be successful need their product to become the next VCR.



I wouldn't personally feel apple has all that much chance of 'ipoding' the living room. Apple seized an opportunity with mp3 players. They initally had comparable technology, but had something the major players lacked; a brand and an image.
I would expect it would be far harder for apple to repeat it's success. If anything, apple has prooven how fickle consumers are, and shown how important branding and style is over substance. I don't believe apple can do this again because I believe other companies are finally realising this, as such the continued sucess with the ipod line is not guarentted. Just wait for a Razr like cellphone with 4-8gb of flash memory at $100 premium, backed up with a decent ad campaign, the ipod wouldn't stand a chance. It's enevitable I feel, you can see it slowly happening already. I also wouldn't put it past canon to have a big impact on this market too, in the cellphone to camera direction, but thats off topic.



With that said, I think I'll go watch wet hot american summer.
 
Lazy8s said:
The true battleground will be the pocket, not the living room.
the thought of companies fighting to get into my pants both excites me and frightens me. but i agree, the mobile market has the most space to grow. sony and nintendo have both proven in the portable space that the same thing, only portable now, works. we're reaching a point where eveything we do digitaly can be replicated, to a certain (acceptable) extent, on a portable device.
 
The money is in the service, not in the hardware. And itsnt like a overly powerful CPU is needed (except for video stuff which can be done through a special video-decoder/-encoder). Hello AMD, IBM, Motorola, that other CPU-vendor, Nvidia, ATI good bye Intel.

Apple, great video and music service. Dare I say the leader? Connect it to my TV and stereo easily and they have something that will sell like hotcakes. And they could do this better than anyone else. It will basicly be iPod for the livingroom.

MS is dragging their heals. I dont see them offering something that others cant do better. They missed the buss on x360.

If Sony can offer a great online service with PS3 then they can offer a different device that doesnt play games but offers some great online services. But I dont think PS3 will offer the great magical services that Sony (KK) said (implied?) that PS3 could do (like ageing my videos over night :LOL: ) Let me put it this way, if Sony doesnt do the "online-thing"/"living room thing" with the PS3 they will never do it in a way that will matter.

Google is quite innovate. They could provide some great services. I would like a smal device sitting in my kitchen, by the telephone with its own LCD that has a touch screen. With quick access to weather, time tables for busses and trains etc, traffic news, local and global customised news. It should have a built in Skype or Vo-IP service. Ability to read the customised news aloud. And understand voice commands. They could sell music and video, and be connected to the TV via some radio device and to the stereo through the same means. The controller should send info through radio signals so I can "change channels" from the living-room without the need for it to sit there. I would like for them to offer me a local add service so that I wont get all those ads through snail-mail and thus save me a lot of papper and make me able to customize the stuff I get. Connect most of the nets radio and TV-stations together in this service. I want it all. I want WWE.coms byte-this and all other stuff they have (they even sell PPVs over the net which is then streamed). I want Gamespots video reviews. The latest trailers.

Heck it is a "PC" but I want it more stream-lined. Streamed TV from across the world. For every country there are sites that has its own radio and TV, I want that too. Heck why not include some games for the remote ;) Nintendo did it. A live arcade service. Comic Strips. Something that is so genericly done that I can add almost any website to it and have its video or radio streamed to me. I want it to be read the temperature out-side and with the help of local weather sudgest to me what type of clothes I should wear.

If Google can just make a machine that has the net wrapped inside it, with easy and customised access they can rule the world.
 
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Very nice write-up xbdestroya. I enjoyed reading that.

To me the Wintel alliance will continue to dominate on the computing side in the home, as Sony will continue to dominate the console sector, but of course MS will make inroads into Sony's territory as they have already done so, but I also see Sony making inroads into MS territory, with the PS3 being more than a console. My hope is that Sony with the PS3, and PS4 can get 25% of the central hub/central computing unit of the home, and hopefully Apple can grab a good chunk.

This scenerio will lead to greater competition where everyone will benefit. I think the future will be less about any one company dominating a particular sector.
 
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dubyateeeff said:
The money is in the service, not in the hardware. And itsnt like a overly powerful CPU is needed (except for video stuff which can be done through a special video-decoder/-encoder). Hello AMD, IBM, Motorola, that other CPU-vendor, Nvidia, ATI good bye Intel.

Apple, great video and music service. Dare I say the leader? Connect it to my TV and stereo easily and they have something that will sell like hotcakes. And they could do this better than anyone else. It will basicly be iPod for the livingroom.

MS is dragging their heals. I dont see them offering something that others cant do better. They missed the buss on x360.

If Sony can offer a great online service with PS3 then they can offer a different device that doesnt play games but offers some great online services. But I dont think PS3 will offer the great magical services that Sony (KK) said (implied?) that PS3 could do (like ageing my videos over night ) Let me put it this way, if Sony doesnt do the "online-thing"/"living room thing" with the PS3 they will never do it in a way that will matter.

Well Intel's push doesn't really have anything to do with the CPU per se, but it's more of a platform thing a la Centrino. Only with ViiV there supposedly will truly be some differentiating features to set it apart from competing products, such as 'instant on' in the vein of CE devices. I don't know, we'll see what they've got at CES, but that was what they were claiming and demonstrating at IDF.

Also I don't think MS missed the boat on 360, rather it *has* to remain subordinate to Windows/PC in order to not burn any bridges with Microsoft's traditional allies in the PC space. I agree this limits it's stand-alone value in a way, but at the same time if the HTPC concept takes off it should prove to be a compelling value as an extender.

I agree that the cash is in the distribution service, not the hardware (on a level - clearly a company like Intel does quite well on chipsets and chips), but again these days it seems the hardware has to be compelling before the software/distribution is considered by the consumer. In any event, the thread was started with the players that want to bring an 'all-in-one' box into the living room next/this year in mind. I think there could be a side conversation had dealing exclusively with digital content distribution strategies - might as well have it in this thread - and indeed in that case I would imagine an altered list of competitors. Probably: Apple, Sony, Time Warner/Comcast, cable companies in general (as mentioned by Graham), and Microsoft on the distribution service side of the competetion.

Sony by all accounts *should* have an advantage in the distribution space of things in that they are a very significant owner of the content itself. But they dropped the ball in the fight against the iPod and iTunes (so far), and I don't think we can be sure of their plans for digital distribution otherwise until they get it together. Also remember that Stringer will have to personally ensure that Sony CE, movies and music, and SCEI aren't pursuing disparate strategies, but rather some sort of unified vision on it. Granted I think he is well aware of this and on the case.
 
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xbdestroya said:
Well Intel's push doesn't really have anything to do with the CPU per se, but it's more of a platform thing a la Centrino.

What you described seemes useful, I just ignored it because I thought it was another crap marketing word :???: A spontaneous answear would be that a smal OS for a dedicated machine would turn on instantly.

Sony by all accounts *should* have an advantage in the distribution space of things in that they are a very significant owner of the content itself.

Yeah, except as a consumer I dont want to be locked into just Sony movies and Sony music. But it would be a great way to start of any living-room-service.

Also remember that Stringer will have to personally ensure that Sony CE, movies and music, and SCEI aren't pursuing disparate strategies, but rather some sort of unified vision on it. Granted I think he is well aware of this and on the case.

I know, I am just thinking he is too late for PS3. OTOH this would be a great reason to delay PS3.
 
dubyateeeff said:
Yeah, except as a consumer I dont want to be locked into just Sony movies and Sony music. But it would be a great way to start of any living-room-service.

Oh I agree with that all the way, I'm just saying that similar to how other content providers have/had to take into account the guaranteed support blu-ray will/would have due to Sony's own studio and hardware support, Sony could leverage a similar calculus when it comes to digital distribution since they are both prominent in the hardware and the content. Not saying that they will, or other companies would be as comfortable with a Sony controlled distribution method as they would with a Sony guided optical format, but hey it's at least got to be an overall advantage before it's a disadvantage should they choose to actively pursue it. Which they should.
 
They've been talking about convergence for at least 10 years, maybe 20. At any rate, long before DVRs and some of the other technologies which are coming to fore.

Then a few years back, the Sony head guy (Idei) said he thought the center of the AV future would be the TV, as it has always been the case (long before Sony talked about putting Cell in TVs), contesting Gates talking about the PC taking a greater role in the converged future.

Of course, you also had Jobs talking about the digital hub, although Apple has just dipped one toe in the waters with Front Row.

While I like a lot of the technologies and gadgets, I don't think there will be some watershed moment. There will be millions of PS3s and PCs shipped. Even if the PS3 wins the format war for Blu-Ray, it won't fundamentally change the way people use AV (which is to buy or rent media and play it).

Nor do I see HTPCs becoming anything but a niche. Who wants a big, noisy box in the living room? (this is where the X360 is hurting too and the PS3 will also, because nobody wants to keep these things on when they're not playing games because they suck too much power and are too noisy).

In fact there really is no killer AV app. aside from the boob tube itself. DVRs have won a loyal following but it remains beyond the reach of many. Tivo is barely surviving while the boxes themselves are becoming commodities. Really, the only thing the DVR does is encourage people to stay with their cable or satellite company. As such, there's no money to be made in making DVR boxes, because the cable and satellite cos. just subsidize them as part of subscriptions.

I really don't think people will spend a lot of money to view photos or listen to music on their HDTV/surround-sound system. If these features are just integrated into the TV (like some HDTVs have DVRs integrated), people might pay a nominal fee.

Also don't see video downloads becoming a big deal, at least in the US, any time soon. If they ever become popular and thus a threat to the cable or telcos (which are getting into offering video services of their own), they will just restrict the pipes.

Also question whether portable video will ever be a big deal. Just don't see the usability of video on the go except to the small segment of the population which have long commute train rides. Yet there is a lot of money being invested, such as dedicated networks for mobile video services being built and even plans to market satellite TV receivers for cars.

Over time, CE devices have gotten smarter while PCs have gotten more multimedia and AV features. Right now, there's a lot of venture capital going to consumer electronics and gadgets. Sling Box was backed by $11 million in VC.

The one advantage I see is if they could just integrate some of these richer features/apps. into CE devices without big, hot, noisy processors. There will be some useful features coming along, like DLNA, 802.11n/UWB/wireless USB or Firewire. It would be good to aggregate all these things in one box but if that box needs a big, hot processor to run it, then forget it. None of these features are killer apps.

It would be better to integrate some of these things into the display. But consumers aren't expecting that. They might go for a Blu-Ray/DVR/receiver combo (again, it can't be noisy). Of course, this kind of box has to be under $300.
 
My bet is on Apple for the following reasons:

* They have demonstrated that they understand the consumer needs and can execute very very well. With iPod, I was told they want to work with household Hi-Fi brands to extend iPod into the living room now.

* As for video, many are reporting Mac-mini rumors like this: http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0511contentdist.html. Given that:
+ Mac users are more willing to pay a premium for convenience
+ Apple is focused on a simple and easy to understand needs (as opposed to convergence)
+ Apple has secured content rights and real experiences with digital audio *and* video distribution
+ Traditional IP streaming infrastructure is too costly, so the rumored "disk caching" capability + H.264 compression may be a viable alternative...


Both Sony and MS have too many baggages. MS's home media PC is too complex and not end-to-end; XBox360 is a game machine forthmost, has fulfillment issues and lacks content; Sony's solutions so far are very fragmented (UMD, Location Free TV, Sony Connect, PSX, PS3, ...) not to mention their content arms seems to have their own agenda.

I have even less faith for the rest. Intel's is just offering hardware components. Google have not secured any content rights yet (to my knowledge).
 
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