2004 Handhelds

[zidane1strife]

I too believe it's going to be nigh impossible to beat psp...

 

[PC-Engine]

I think the pertinent question is whether SONY will be able to price the PSP below $150 while allowing at least 8 hrs of continuous gameplay per battery charge, because if it couldn't at least meet those two requirements then there's really no urgency for any competitor to have to beat it.

 

[marconelly!]

I too believe it's going to be nigh impossible to beat psp...

Maybe not impossible, but I just don't think it will happen. Who is going to release such a device before them, AND have quality games that will show off the hardware? If something like that was going to launch during the 2004, I think developers would hear about it by now. In 2005 perhaps... Nintendo may release something that might or might not compete on the hardware level, depending on if they see it's important to compete with the hardware specs (so far they never went that route, when it comes to handhelds, though)

I think the pertinent question is whether SONY will be able to price the PSP below $150 while allowing at least 8 hrs of continuous gameplay per battery charge

If Nokia can price nGage at $200 and give $100 in software with it (a device with capabilities of that kind are normally selling for $300-$350), I think Sony can, and must, afford to sell PSP at $150-$200.

 

[V3]

I think the pertinent question is whether SONY will be able to price the PSP below $150 while allowing at least 8 hrs of continuous gameplay per battery charge, because if it couldn't at least meet those two requirements then there's really no urgency for any competitor to have to beat it.

Regarding price, I don't think PSP is all that expensive to produce. However, if there is no competitor, what's the urgency for Sony to drop price or increase battery life ?

I am hoping for competition, competition is always good. I mean we can't rule out that Nintendo mystery machine being some kind of GC Portable.

 

[PC-Engine]

Unless the PSP meets those two requirements, it won't catch on as a gaming device. As a media device it won't be that attractive either because it can't play DVD movies, nor can it be used as a cell phone. You can't record to UMD so it won't be a good MP3 player either. It tries to be too many things and may end up not being good in any category.

 

[Dave Baumann]

'Effective' is pretty vague though, varies from app to app, so you might as well take the best case scenario and say that it's 2X?

No, the effective rate would not vary per chip - an "effective" fill-rate would vary uniformly for all chips, the 2X difference on the PDF is a hardware specification difference between the two variants of MBX.

 

[marconelly!]

No, the effective rate would not vary per chip

I didn't mean per chip, but rather per scene it has to render. It is my understanding that if it's a scene which features lots and lots of surfaces that cover/hide each other, PoverVR solution becomes more effective.

 

[cthellis42]

People are already complaining that the PSP--launching at the end of 2004--will have make a poor showing because developers haven't had finalized specs or even emulators in time to get rolling on games to make things more unique than PS1 ports, and though information of the PSP has been out for 6-7 months and developer relations have been rolling since that time, there's an expectation that a portable system of similar scale and support will solidify out of plain speculation, and attract a lot of developer support (developers already distracted by PSP and nGage and more handheld projects) to have a full, proper, and competitive launch in the same timeframe?

Uh-huh.

Will a system come out to present good challenge to the PSP? It certainly could, and I look forward to seeing it come forward--just as I'm glad I don't see everyone else backing away from the market in spite of Nintendo's dominance, PSP's approach, and nGage's large stumbling. But in 2004? I'll take "No" for $200, Alex.

 

[V3]

the 2X difference on the PDF is a hardware specification difference between the two variants of MBX.

Hey Dave, that 2X gain in performance is due to more pipe ? or is it because the MBX HR-S model has FSAA4Free over the R-S model ?

Anyway a raw 480 MPixel/s is very impressive, this is like 5 times the performance of the PVR in Dreamcast, and they achieve this at lowly 120 MHz. I don't know what's the gate count for PVR in Dreamcast, but 600k gates that's pretty efficient for that performance.

BTW What's the performance of that geometry SIMD unit ?

 

[Dave Baumann]

the 2X difference on the PDF is a hardware specification difference between the two variants of MBX.

Hey Dave, that 2X gain in performance is due to more pipe ? or is it because the MBX HR-S model has FSAA4Free over the R-S model ?

I assume that its due to more pipes. There's definatly something up with those specs as I really can't see it being 4 pixel pipes - two pipes with two textures possibly. The presentation does explicitly state "Pixels" though, and the FSAA wouldn't be pixels but samples as its MSAA.

Anyway, I just phoned David Harold at PowerVR - he was kinda interested in the fact that there is an ARM document stating they had it in hardware. However, evidently PowerVR have already displayed this operating at their AGM running a "3D FPS Engine". Hopefully he'll be able to clarfiy the performances per clock later on. I asked if he knew about PSP and he said yes and they "would certaintly see the high end MBX being used in competing gaming devices".

 

[hey69]

i believe and heard a rumor also as a fact that nintendo will come out late 2004 with GBA2 (rumors are rumors I know..)

lets say... WAIT FOR E3 ! i expect some news from all 3 of them

 

[nobie]

I thought Nintendos official word was that they aren't going to release anything to go against PSP, but rely on GBA instead.

 

[Brimstone]

NEC now has Mosys 1t-SRAM-Q at .90 nm. Hudson has a Mosys license. Their website clearly states they have a 32 bit mobile processor on the way (POEMS). My prediction is the technology Hudson has developed will be some of the most intresting for the year 2004. If Nintendo is partnering with them, it will get a lot of hype making things hard on Sony's PSP.

 

[overclocked]

Just curious, what´s GBA spec? SNES*2!?

 

[darkblu]

and then looks like nokia are willing for a second attempt

http://www.gamepro.com/nokia/ngage/hardware/news/32473.shtml

 

[Dave Baumann]

NEC now has Mosys 1t-SRAM-Q at .90 nm. Hudson has a Mosys license. Their website clearly states they have a 32 bit mobile processor on the way (POEMS). My prediction is the technology Hudson has developed will be some of the most intresting for the year 2004. If Nintendo is partnering with them, it will get a lot of hype making things hard on Sony's PSP.

Alternatively, for the sake of CPU compatability Nintendo could opt to stick with ARM for handheld, which also makes MBX a fairly likely candidate.

 

[Brimstone]

NEC now has Mosys 1t-SRAM-Q at .90 nm. Hudson has a Mosys license. Their website clearly states they have a 32 bit mobile processor on the way (POEMS). My prediction is the technology Hudson has developed will be some of the most intresting for the year 2004. If Nintendo is partnering with them, it will get a lot of hype making things hard on Sony's PSP.

Alternatively, for the sake of CPU compatability Nintendo could opt to stick with ARM for handheld, which also makes MBX a fairly likely candidate.

Sure, but the way Hudson describes POEMS really makes me think of how Nintendo has been elluding to its new device. Not a game console or just a mobile game device.


Hudson seems to have been very busy the last couple of years.

Hudson Soft Licenses Tensilica’s Xtensa Processor For High-Speed Graphics Controller
High-Volume Consumer Electronics Supplier Optimizes Xtensa Processor To Advance Graphics Performance
Santa Clara, CALIF. and Yokohama, JAPAN , October 15, 2002 – Tensilica, Inc., the leading provider of configurable and extensible microprocessors, today announced that another high-volume consumer electronics company, Hudson Soft Company, Ltd., has licensed the Xtensa microprocessor core. Hudson Soft, headquartered in Hokkaido, Japan, will design a new versatile graphics controller for use in future consumer products. A well-known name to millions of Japanese consumers, Hudson Soft joins Tensilica’s growing list of consumer electronics customers, which already includes leading suppliers of digital cameras and cellular phones.

“Xtensa will enable us to deliver breakthrough graphics quality to manufacturers of small, battery-operated hand-held devices as well as specialty entertainment consoles,†said Satoshi Murakami, executive officer, Core Technology Division, Hudson Soft. “The ability to configure and extend the Xtensa processor to our exact needs lets us get maximum performance with a shorter time to market.â€

“Hudson’s implementation continues to demonstrate the unmatched flexibility of our configurable and extensible processor,†said Bernie Rosenthal, senior vice president of marketing and sales for Tensilica. “Just as we continue to drive our technology into high-volume consumer markets, we are also experiencing significant success in a variety of growing high-performance markets, all using the same Xtensa platform.â€

The Xtensa configurable and extensible microprocessor architecture provides a powerful, integrated hardware and software development environment with thousands of configuration options and an unlimited range of customer-specific extensions. The environment enables designers to carefully tune the processor for their particular application. With an easy-to-use graphical interface, designers can take advantage of Tensilica’s processor generator to create customized MPU solutions with specialized functional and instructions. Because these instructions are recognized as “native†by a complete set of software development tools, developers can simultaneously tune both application software and processor hardware to meet specific speed, power and feature goals.

About Hudson
Hudson Soft is a leading developer of games and game related software. The company has been a pioneer for almost thirty years, creating numerous firsts in the game industry and satisfying game players with unique and deep content. Hudson’s Core Technology division is responsible for an impressive list of successful technologies, including the development of original game consoles ("PC Engine" and "PC-FX"), development environments, extensive middleware tools, libraries and compilers for successive game platforms, semiconductors and devices for game consoles. The company is headquartered in Sapporo, Japan. Ph: 81-11-821-4622 www.hudson.co.jp

About Tensilica
Tensilica was founded in July 1997 to address the fast-growing market for configurable processors and software development tools for high volume, embedded systems. Using the company's proprietary Xtensa Processor Generator, system-on-chip (SOC) designers can develop a processor subsystem hardware design and a complete software development tool environment tailored to their specific requirements in hours. Tensilica's solutions provide a proven, easy-to-use, methodology that enables designers to achieve optimum application performance in minimum design time. The Company is engaged in research, development, and customer support from its offices in Santa Clara, California; Burlington, Massachusetts; Princeton, NJ; Austin, Texas; Raleigh, NC; Oxford, U.K.; Stockholm, Sweden; Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C.; and Yokohama, Japan. Tensilica is headquartered in Santa Clara, California (95054) at 3255-6 Scott Boulevard, and can be reached at (408) 986-8000 or via www.tensilica.com.

http://www.tensilica.com/html/pr_2002_10_15.html

 

[Brimstone]

The Xtensa Instruction Set Architecture (ISA) was designed from the ground up for embedded applications. With advanced architectural features such as a register-windowing scheme that accelerates function calls, and built-in zero-overhead loop capability to accelerate the repetitive inner code loops typically found in embedded computing applications, the Xtensa processor delivers superior performance in most embedded applications on ‘out of the box†application code.

The Proof
The EEMBC benchmarks prove it. EEMBC results include two types of performance testing – “out of the box†and “optimized. As the name implies, “out of the box†literally means taking the unadulterated benchmark C code – no code tuning, no assembly coding, no algorithm restructuring – and running it through a compiler and measuring the results.

The following chart compares EEMBC Out-of-the-Box benchmark performance for several licensable processor architectures on a per-MHz basis– a true and fair measure of pure ISA architectural strengths.

http://www.tensilica.com./html/better_architcture.html

Seems like quite a powerful CPU compared to ARM and MIPS.

 

[Clashman]

Seems like quite a powerful CPU compared to ARM and MIPS.

Given the fact that the chart was on a per Mhz basis, wouldn't that depend on how well clockspeeds scale in relation to ARM and MIPS, (not saying that it doesn't scale well, I just don't know).

 

[Dave Baumann]

Given its nature it appears that it needs to be.