Switch 2 Speculation

Handheld: CPU 1100.8 MHz, GPU 561 MHz, EMC 2133 MHz
Docked: CPU 998.4 MHz, GPU 1007.25 MHz, EMC 3200 MHz

Apparently this is the complete spec. The CPU frequency doesn't make much sense to me, makes me doubt if there isn't some mistake somewhere.
Higher CPU for handheld is weird.
Apologies if I am missing something (very likely) - it appeared to me that memory bandwidth seemed appropriate for these reported specifications and clocks? *Note: I am old enough to remember the GF256 SDR and TNT2 M64, which maybe shapes my expectations.
Bandwidth for portable mode should be decent. And Docked it has better bandwidth than the Xbox One. For the specs it should suffice but will be another obstacle when porting current gen games.
so in docked mode it has slightly less GPU flops thant a Meta Quest 3 ?
I would love if Nintendo created a VR pipeline for developers and a headset attachment.
 
Handheld: CPU 1100.8 MHz, GPU 561 MHz, EMC 2133 MHz
Docked: CPU 998.4 MHz, GPU 1007.25 MHz, EMC 3200 MHz

Apparently this is the complete spec. The CPU frequency doesn't make much sense to me, makes me doubt if there isn't some mistake somewhere.
The info comes from Zachy, a reliable dataminer, so a mistake is unlikely. But it sounds so weird maybe the actual clocks will be different for some reason, Idk, maybe those are clocks for testing purpose only that ended up in a production firmware...
Anyway, let's assume this is the real deal.

GPU clocks in handheld mode are surprisingly ok.
I find it strange that docked clocks are not higher given the hybrid design was taken into consideration from the start. I expected a larger handhled/docked gap than with the Switch.
Seems the target for docked will be 1440p.

Memory clocks must be fine. NVidia engineers must know what bandwith their GPU need, so I guess it will be appropriate for most use cases.

1Ghz CPU in a 2025 console though. That's a bummer. That's lower that my already lowest expectations.
Whatever the reasons, I really feel that's not the best product Nintendo could have offered in 2025 after the Switch exceptional success.
We'll se how this thing and its games are priced... If this ends up being a $400 console with $70 games, I can't see how it could sell as well it's predecessor.
 
Those CPU clocks don't make any sense.

The A78 core has a target clock speed between 1.5GHz and 3.3GHz depending on form factor. It runs at 3GHz in phones 😅

Doesn't the Jetson Orin NX and Orin Nano developer boards run between 1.5 and 2.2GHz?
 
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Those CPU clocks don't make any sense.

The A78 core has a target clock speed between 1.5GHz and 3.3GHz depending on form factor. It runs at 3GHz in phones 😅

Doesn't the Jetson Orin NX and Orin Nano developer boards run between 1.5 and 2.2GHz?
I would imagine that the thermal and power budget is more constrained c.f. the Orin SBC boards? And the phone comparison seems a little difficult because (I'm assuming) those are very dynamic clock speeds, and potentially on a more advanced process node?
 
Those CPU clocks don't make any sense.

The A78 core has a target clock speed between 1.5GHz and 3.3GHz depending on form factor. It runs at 3GHz in phones 😅

Doesn't the Jetson Orin NX and Orin Nano developer boards run between 1.5 and 2.2GHz?
If Nintendo performances target for this new system was basically to match PS4 era gaming experience, those clocks make a lot of sense.
The CPU should still offer better performances vs any of old gen CPUs, including the PS4 Pro. This should be in fact very similar to the One X CPU.
So I'd say it's the absolute bare minimum, but it would match the target.

Also, rumored specs mention a SEC8N "bad" node and a <20Wh battery, so the power budget must be really low to keep acceptable battery life.
Having this low clocked CPU allows for better GPU clocks. So it's a tradeoff that seems to be more GPU centric. But there again, the Switch 2 GPU should offer a better gaming experience vs last gen.

The most disappointing part for me is that whatever performances target they had in mind, they could have used a better fabrication process. And I can't see how TSMC 5nm could be much more expensive in 2025 (vs SEC8N). This would have given the console better battery life and make it run cooler. And no need for customers to buy a refresh console in two to three years.

Anyway, it is what it is.
 
Switch 2 discussion around clocks is reassuringly similar to with Switch one, just with some different names expressing disbelief and disappointment. :yes:

Not using dynamic frequencies would be another mistake. Just give developers a power budget and let them optimize based on that.

I'm trying to think of what this might mean for price conscious handheld, and why Nintendo might not want it. Hmm.

If you give a power budget and let clocks fluctuate wildly, I expect this would mean you're far more often at the power budget limit, and that would mean much worse battery life. So either a poor user experience or a more expensive battery. By giving clocks instead, you're normally well under the power budget, and probably only get close in a few areas of a game. So that would probably be a cost thing that Nintendo might want to avoid.

On top of this, while the max power output of the chip might be the same, the thermal output of the hotspots on the chip e.g. the CPU cores (like the ALUs and stuff) will increase in a none linear fashion. This is going to require a more expensive cooling system, as you have to dissipate more heat from a smaller proportion of the surface area of the chip (thought perhaps not so much for un-docked mode). So again that would probably be a cost thing that Nintendo would want to avoid.

Finally, implementing and testing a deterministic clock control system - the same amongst all units like AMD did for Sony - might require more development work on both Nvidia and Nintendo's side. And again that's cost.

Things would just be a lot simpler to set conservative predetermined clocks (or combinations of clocks), know you can handle them if you need to, and expect to normally be comfortably under them.

Finally (part 2), Nintendo are very conservative with hardware, and innovate on the software side. They know fixed clocks, and they've never not worked for them. Ruthlessly managing BOM and keeping R&D costs relatively low (so they can survive a WiiU like moment) are things they probably value more than squeezing max performance out of every mm^2 of silicon.

The most disappointing part for me is that whatever performances target they had in mind, they could have used a better fabrication process. And I can't see how TSMC 5nm could be much more expensive in 2025 (vs SEC8N). This would have given the console better battery life and make it run cooler. And no need for customers to buy a refresh console in two to three years.

Samsung 8nm is probably very cheap now. Nvidia got a good deal from Samsung way back when, and are perhaps the ones negotiating with Samsung for the chips as supplier to Nintendo. This may be part of an ongoing supply agreement with Samsung.

Nvidia will already have the design libraries they need to design what Nintendo want, and Nintendo aren't going to pay potentially 100s of millions of dollars to move the design over and validate it. The R&D costs for Switch 2 will be being kept as low as possible, risk of using extremely mature tech on an extremely mature process is low, and the cost of the chips will be relatively low.

If Nintendo are indeed using 8nm part made at Samsung, then I'm pretty sure that nothing is going to be a cheaper overall solution for the product they think they need to make!
 
If Nintendo performances target for this new system was basically to match PS4 era gaming experience, those clocks make a lot of sense.
The CPU should still offer better performances vs any of old gen CPUs, including the PS4 Pro. This should be in fact very similar to the One X CPU.
So I'd say it's the absolute bare minimum, but it would match the target.

Also, rumored specs mention a SEC8N "bad" node and a <20Wh battery, so the power budget must be really low to keep acceptable battery life.
Having this low clocked CPU allows for better GPU clocks. So it's a tradeoff that seems to be more GPU centric. But there again, the Switch 2 GPU should offer a better gaming experience vs last gen.

The most disappointing part for me is that whatever performances target they had in mind, they could have used a better fabrication process. And I can't see how TSMC 5nm could be much more expensive in 2025 (vs SEC8N). This would have given the console better battery life and make it run cooler. And no need for customers to buy a refresh console in two to three years.

Anyway, it is what it is.
You can't just move your design between foundries (Samsung to TSMC). They are incompatible. The NVIDIA SoC was designed on a Samsung node, so that's it.

Anyway I forgot that Playstation 4 and Playstation 4 Pro used AMD Jaguar derived cores ... which has awful performance.

Just above 400 points in single-core performance at 2.13GHz in Geekbench 6. Don't look up what Tegra X1 gets 😂
 
Samsung 8nm is probably very cheap now. Nvidia got a good deal from Samsung way back when, and are perhaps the ones negotiating with Samsung for the chips as supplier to Nintendo. This may be part of an ongoing supply agreement with Samsung.

Nvidia will already have the design libraries they need to design what Nintendo want, and Nintendo aren't going to pay potentially 100s of millions of dollars to move the design over and validate it. The R&D costs for Switch 2 will be being kept as low as possible, risk of using extremely mature tech on an extremely mature process is low, and the cost of the chips will be relatively low.

If Nintendo are indeed using 8nm part made at Samsung, then I'm pretty sure that nothing is going to be a cheaper overall solution for the product they think they need to make!

You can't just move your design between foundries (Samsung to TSMC). They are incompatible. The NVIDIA SoC was designed on a Samsung node, so that's it.

Anyway I forgot that Playstation 4 and Playstation 4 Pro used AMD Jaguar derived cores ... which has awful performance.

Just above 400 points in single-core performance at 2.13GHz in Geekbench 6. Don't look up what Tegra X1 gets 😂
I get that it may be "cheaper", but since we also have cheap devices out there with SoC build on TSMC 5nm, I'd say TSCM 5nm is also cheap now. So the question is, how much "cheaper" is important to Nintendo? And cheaper to design this one chip... but once we add the cost of designing the inevitable 5nm revision, what will be the real savings?
It sucks there's that much secrecy in this industry so no one can really answer this question.

Like you two said, we can only assume Nintendo got their calculations right. But the disappointment is still real and the feeling that this chip should have been fabbed on a better node is so frustrating.
 
And cheaper to design this one chip... but once we add the cost of designing the inevitable 5nm revision, what will be the real savings?
Sadly, it almost certainly works out in Nintendo's favor here. And Nintendo is clearly dead set on making more than negligible margins on the hardware itself, while not being super interested in pushing high performance or max efficiency, so that's the situation we're in.

EDIT: Also, TSMC isn't the only choice for a shrink. It's the best one, but Samsung has made advancements as well since 8nm.
 
You can't just move your design between foundries (Samsung to TSMC). They are incompatible. The NVIDIA SoC was designed on a Samsung node, so that's it.
I mean, you cant just hand over the same design, no. Even processes within the same manufacturer are frequently incompatible. But you can totally rework a design to use a different manufacturing process. This is 100% an 'if there's a will(or budget), there's a way' situation.
 

I hope that was not MK9 they showed. Looks just like MK8.
My thought, precisely. I'm sure someone MK8D hardcore fan will soon confirm it's MK9 or not, but it's a weird choice as the "first even Switch 2 images".
Also, not a fan of the trailer being 100% CGI.

At least this confirm all the leaks were just spot on, except for the colors on the tablet "rails" itself. But not a super great first impression, for sure.

[edit] Seems it's NOT MK8D so...
[edit2] Interestingly, the famous C button is just a plain button with no marking at all. The C must mean something else than just "another button"
 
Showing it evolving from a Switch makes it look very much like "This is Switch" rather than "This is Something Completely New".

And oh, I can play Mario Kart, again.
It's not even really evolving from a Switch. It's evolving from a thing that looks like a Switch front the front only. No button, no grid no hole no nothing on the top.
Weird choice.
 
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