Sony's Cross-Generation Game Messaging [2021]

[see colon]

Yea, I think the real-time strategy genre dying off was perhaps the most disappointing of it all, and the new genres coming in, like the story walker ones, feels, like we lost something big.

It's crazy to me the amount of genres that have basically disappeared from the AAA space. Or features, even. Split screen racing games were a staple of PS2/Xbox/GC libraries. PS3 and 360 started off with them, but they dried up later in the generation. And that's somewhat understandable given the push for better graphics. But there are basically none on PS4 and XBO outside of Race With Ryan and Cars. It's getting really depressing looking at newer games and seeing we basically have FPS and 3rd person action games to look forward to. Maybe with looter elements.

I played so much Quake2 and unreal tournament that even today I cannot play anything like halo, battlefield, destiny, doom,... They all feel like the same game from 20 years ago. Point and shoot and get annoyed by cheaters. Some games haven't evolved much outside graphics.

Remake mgs2 and make it completely dynamic. i.e. blow holes into wall, dig through floors, etc. Make AI smart enough to handle dynamic environments that keep changing. Could be fun and different. Too bad we just want more graphics and don't focus on things that directly improve gameplay like destroyable environment.

More I think about it. Could minecraft be the last really innovative game or do we lump that also together with some previous innovation? Dreams is cool in many ways but it kind of builds on legacy of little big planet and minecraft. I do remember some this or that constructions kit games shipping on c64, amiga etc. These ancient games could be used as prior art to say minecraft/dreams is just a copy of old idea that was kind of already done(within limits of contemporary hw)

Not trying to be contrarian or anything, but Minecraft started as a Infiniminer clone. It evolved into something different and unique, or course, but it's roots aren't at all original. And I'm in total agreement about Unreal and Quake. Literally had a kid tell me how much Unreal Tournament ripped off Overwatch once. Almost lost it.

 

[snc]

It's crazy to me the amount of genres that have basically disappeared from the AAA space. Or features, even. Split screen racing games were a staple of PS2/Xbox/GC libraries. PS3 and 360 started off with them, but they dried up later in the generation. And that's somewhat understandable given the push for better graphics. But there are basically none on PS4 and XBO outside of Race With Ryan and Cars. It's getting really depressing looking at newer games and seeing we basically have FPS and 3rd person action games to look forward to. Maybe with looter elements.


Not trying to be contrarian or anything, but Minecraft started as a Infiniminer clone. It evolved into something different and unique, or course, but it's roots aren't at all original. And I'm in total agreement about Unreal and Quake. Literally had a kid tell me how much Unreal Tournament ripped off Overwatch once. Almost lost it.

Gt sport, forza 7, crash team racing, team sonic racing have split screen racing ?

 

[zed]

Saw this https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021...ra-crumbles-gran-turismo-7-will-be-cross-gen/
Stupid on Sonys part, hopefully it bites them on the bum (where the ps4 version of the game sells 10% of what the ps5 sells)
Hopefully Horizon Forbidden West underperforms in the market on ps4 which may result in the ps4 versions of upcoming ps5 games being dropped

Sure they can blame covid and the chip shortage, but sometimes one just has to suck up bad luck, better to stick to your word

So from looking the only true exclusives so far are (any missing?)

Astro’s Playroom
Demon’s Souls
Destruction AllStars
Returnal
Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart // next week

 

[Jay]

Single player games the designs have already taken into account last gen, so dropping previous gen probably wouldn't make a huge difference now. Could add in a boss that couldn't be done on last gen I guess.
I'm actually assuming Sony knew for a long time that they was going to be cross platform for most of them.

GT7 is a whole different matter. It's going to have a long tail of support, multiplayer, etc.
Example of possible cut backs (all non graphical related)

• Dynamic weather
• AI
• Physics
• Amount of cars on track

In multiplayer you would have to dial everything to PS4, and single player probably would want to keep generations the same apart from graphics.
So the affect on the game and that community will persist. It's not a game you only play once or a couple times.

 

[Jay]

Unless they go back to the old ways of the previous and current gen being literary distinct different sku's without cross gen multiplayer support.

But then the support around that would be magnified, split player base, it just gets really messy.
Better to just give PS5 a shiny PS4 version.

 

[PSman1700]

So from looking the only true exclusives so far are (any missing?)

Astro’s Playroom
Demon’s Souls
Destruction AllStars
Returnal
Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart // next week

And thats the thing, out of those, Demon souls is a remake of a PS3 version, its hereby not truly exclusive except for the graphics department. Destruction allstars needs bots to keep it alive, it was supposedly going to cost us 70 dollars to play but went F2P. Its kinda a flop.
Astrobot is a tech demonstration for the dualsense included in every PS5, not a full AAA exclusive in the sense like HZD, GoW killzone etc.
Returnal is a full exclusive but graphically it doesnt really do all that much regarding true next gen leap graphics, not either from one of the large sony studios.

Were left with Rift Apart then, and that does look amazing, full exclusive (so far) from a large sony AAA studio. If it has those 'true next gen leap graphics' is up to debate, i do not think it trounces CP2077, demon souls or the playable UE5 engine tech.

 

[goonergaz]

So, what you are saying is that modern electric vehicles aren't better or more efficient than previous electric vehicles? That's a pretty narrow view to take. Likewise for space travel?

I certainly have never said any of those things nor have I implied it with what I said.

Re-read what I've said, graphics and presentation are certain to get better and it'll be amazing what we'll see and get to play this generation. IE - electric cars have gotten better and will continue to get better.

Modern houses are better than caves, but they are still residences. Modern games look and play better than older games, but the gameplay is still the same.

We are unlikely to see new types of gameplay that would not be possible on previous generations of consoles or PCs. Going to the moon with a modern spacecraft is still the same, it's just more efficient. New electric vehicles are still electric vehicles, it's just more advanced and more efficient.

And that's even assuming that gameplay is remotely analogous to any of your examples, which it isn't.

Did we have games with 6 degrees of freedom with aiming being decoupled from viewing direction back in the 1990's just like VR games? Yup, we sure did. Was it as polished and easy to use as modern VR controls? Not even remotely. Did the gameplay change or did the experience change? The gameplay is the same, the experience has changed.

I'm not sure why you're turning your nose up at all the advancements that we've seen in games related to presentation and convenience.

Regards,
SB

I’m obviously struggling to get my point across,
I just don’t agree that both is new as it were - the examples I gave were like you saying ‘VR gameplay is the same’.

I’m saying that you implying that gameplay hasn’t changed and nothing is new is not correct. But then my views on gameplay are clearly different.

There’s still innovation out there it’s just not as obvious or ‘fresh’ because of saturation among others things, but just take driving or football games, those gameplay elements are changing and improving all the time and new gameplay features are added.

 

[see colon]

Gt sport, forza 7, crash team racing, team sonic racing have split screen racing ?

Oh, I'm mad at myself for forgetting Team Sonic. So we have 6 split screen racing games? You used to not be able to release a racer without it.

Sure they can blame covid and the chip shortage, but sometimes one just has to suck up bad luck, better to stick to your word

They can blame Covid and the ship shortage, but I'll again bring up the fact that PS5 is selling faster than PS4 and PS3 did in the same time period. And Covid has only increased gaming's footprint as a hobby. If you have higher demand (more people gaming), and a larger installed base, then a supply constraint nor a virus that keeps people playing games can be blamed for a need for a previous gen version. Again, I'm not upset about this. There are games I want to play and I can wait a bit longer to get a PS5 now. This is a big shift for Sony. the only non-sports cross gen game I can think of prior to PS5's release is Little Big Planet 3.

 

[iroboto]

there have certainly been tons of innovation in tools and content development
I would say the latest evolution of things has been a lot more emphasis on story, cinematic storytelling etc, larger and more epic game sets, environments, detail, and graphics. A ton of innovation on the graphics side of things, that's largely not left us.

There's been a lot of quality of life improvements, and a lot more thought about the player experience etc. Games are certainly a lot better for those reasons now. Games are more accessible than ever, reach a wider audience than ever, and are treated more seriously than ever as it continues to borrow more from the cinema space.

That's where a lot of the past decade of innovations have gone I think. We've had a lot of novel approaches to bringing genres together, and I think that has worked out well for a lot of innovative games.

We see a lot more P&P and Boardgame/card game type mechanics finding themselves into games now. All good things.

With dynamic lighting/GI - I expect that to finally be a place where environments are no longer limited by lighting. The idea of being in a cave or tunnel and having light crash through dynamically etc. I think there is a lot of opportunity there that will come in time.

I just wasn't sure if it would come at launch.

 

[manux]

It's better to reverse stupid decisions and not go into your grave while being ignorant. If pc can scale from very old laptop to 3090 so I believe sony can scale from ps4 to ps5. I would be surprised if sony keeps bringing triple a games for ps4 after 2022. Of course gt7 would still be supported. That said, there is no technical reason to not have also ps5 specific races and tracks if sony so desires. The games don't need to be 100% same.

At least we should have plenty of players online thanks to bigger customer base. I remember times when it was difficult to find people to play with.

If sony didn't bring those games to ps4 we would see these games 1-2year later due to economics. It's either take cross gen title during launch year or wait few more years for same title to become viable only using new shiny console.

 

[zed]

They can blame Covid and the ship shortage, but I'll again bring up the fact that PS5 is selling faster than PS4 and PS3 did in the same time period.

perhaps its selling quicker than previous models, but it was still only ended up produced 4 million less than they wanted by mar 2021

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Stupid on Sonys part, hopefully it bites them on the bum (where the ps4 version of the game sells 10% of what the ps5 sells)

I don't disagree but I think the drive for profits isn't fully appreciated by most people. If Sony make $90m off the PS5 version and $9m off the PS4 version and spend very little to get it working on PS4 then it's all profit. Profit is profit. The tipping-point tends to lie where the effort to support PS4, if directed differently, could have produced more profit elsewhere. The lack of availability of nextgen consoles is probably causing deviation from lots of business models.

But that doesn't change this is more crappy comms from Sony.

 

[manux]

i do not think it trounces CP2077, demon souls or the playable UE5 engine tech.

UE5 is not a full game. CP2077 runs on ps4 and old xbox making it an old console game by your standards. Runs on ps4, it's sucky ps4 game. cp2077 looks great at places but it also looks pretty damn bad at other places. The assets are a mixed bag with plenty of poor quality last gen stuff in the mix.

To some people like me cp2077 is still broken game 6months after release and I have not played it through as I'm still waiting for more patches to address issues and the promised dlc. I'm not playing with peasant hw either, I have decent enough pc with 3070fe gpu and nvme ssd.

edit. UE5 seems to run great on ps5. Latest indication being the lowered asset quality in new build compared to the very old version shown with ps5. I don't understand how ue5 would be anything but great for sony and playstation.

 

[PSman1700]

UE5 is not a full game. CP2077 runs on ps4 and old xbox making it an old console game by your standards. Runs on ps4, it's sucky ps4 game. cp2077 looks great at places but it also looks pretty damn bad at other places. The assets are a mixed bag with plenty of poor quality last gen stuff in the mix.

To some people like me cp2077 is still broken game 6months after release and I have not played it through as I'm still waiting for more patches to address issues and the promised dlc. I'm not playing with peasant hw either, I have decent enough pc with 3070fe gpu and nvme ssd.

edit. UE5 seems to run great on ps5. Latest indication being the lowered asset quality in new build compared to the very old version shown with ps5. I don't understand how ue5 would be anything but great for sony and playstation.

Yeah PS4 version got that much attention it was a refund story for most users, that well and nice it ran on that system lol.
2077 for a reason got the number one best looking title for 2020. It will atleast be up there with the top titles for 2021 aswell, Its not all that fair comparing to a PS5 versus a higher end pc, but still, graphics is graphics.

UE5 PS5 tech demo ran well on a laptop equipped with a 2080maxQ. The new demo available to pc is actually more impressive since well, you can actually play the damn thing. Its not restricted to a corridor on-rail experience.
Also examining both, i do think the new demo is more impressive in most regards.

UE5 would do great for all platforms, not just for Play Station.

 

[manux]

Yeah PS4 version got that much attention it was a refund story for most users, that well and nice it ran on that system lol.
2077 for a reason got the number one best looking title for 2020. It will atleast be up there with the top titles for 2021 aswell, Its not all that fair comparing to a PS5 versus a higher end pc, but still, graphics is graphics.

UE5 PS5 tech demo ran well on a laptop equipped with a 2080maxQ. The new demo available to pc is actually more impressive since well, you can actually play the damn thing. Its not restricted to a corridor on-rail experience.
Also examining both, i do think the new demo is more impressive in most regards.

UE5 would do great for all platforms, not just for Play Station.

The new demo as per epic was using lower quality assets than the early ps5 demo. This was to run on all platforms. Then the dude chuckled how the whole new demo is in ram in his pc. The old ue5 demo was more impressive from asset point of view. Assets have something to do with graphics quality. Btw. The old ps5 demo was also playable as discussed and shown by epic. Epic even emphasized the playable part originally.

 

[PSman1700]

The new demo as per epic was using lower quality assets than the early ps5 demo. This was to run on all platforms. Then the dude chuckled how the whole new demo is in ram in his pc. The old ue5 demo was more impressive from asset point of view. Assets have something to do with graphics quality. Btw. The old ps5 demo was also playable as discussed and shown by epic. Epic even emphasized the playable part originally.

I think this should answer your concerns.

 

[manux]

I think this should answer your concerns.

Asset quality was downgraded from original demo. Timestamped link to reasoning why original demo used extreme level assets. This video contains also the bit about asset quality downgrade if you want to listen through whole video.

I'm not claiming anything about engine level downgrades. There is no such thing. But assets were downgraded and reasoning behind it was to run on all platforms.

 

[zed]

and spend very little to get it working on PS4 then it's all profit. Profit is profit

But its not profit if your sales are lower

I'm guessing rachet and clank PS5 will outsell the last rachet and clank game, now if this game also had to appear on PS4 then the PS5 game would be worse (yeah I know ppl go oh but the PC scales so its all good, well yeah nah :sly: thats why we don't typically have crysis's )
and Im guessing would of been less profitable

 

[PSman1700]

Asset quality was downgraded from original demo.

Last years demo was also restricted to a corridor/on-rail showcase, there was no free roam going on as in this years demo which obviously is going to put more stress on assets.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

Is the scaling argument really an appropriate comparison?

XSS and XSX scaling works because the only difference is GPU power and memory capacity. There may be some theoretical forms of gameplay that couldn't scale (e.g. a hypothetical game that requires 4TF of gameplay related compute on the XSX and the remaining 8TF to render couldn't scale to the XSS) but I've not read developers decrying the two tier systems on that basis.

On PC, games can scale across a wide range of hardware because shuttling data from HDD/SSD->DDR->VRAM still means the GPU can access a substantial pool of data at several GB/s. I suspect the current generation of consoles may end up mandating larger minimums of both DDR and VRAM in multiplatform games on PC, while still remaining highly scalable in terms of GPU/CPU power.

But PS4->PS5? That's a 5.5GB pool of unified memory which can be fed at something like 20MB/s (I can't remember the exact figure that Insomniac stated.) Surely that massively limits the way in which games are designed?

I'm currently replaying Dad of War, and the lack of enemy types is noticeable. There are a handful of reskins, but not quite enough variety in terms of actual, mechanical types. Given the comments of an Insomniac developer, in which they stated that they don't have to consider number and variety of enemies as any sort of limitation this time, it does make me concerned that this will still be a limitation in the next DoW.

It was disappointing enough to know that flying speed would be gimped in Horizon Forbidden West. Now, I'm going to have a bunch of crouching through corridors, slowly climbing cliff faces, and limited enemy types in the next DoW.

If there was concern that a lot of PS4 players wouldn't be able to access the next entries of these franchises, the matter should've been dealt with via PSNow IMO. But I won't go through that right now, as it wouldn't be fair for me to keep neglecting my girlfriend in order to be a nerd.