General Next Generation Rumors and Discussions [Post GDC 2020]

You changed the subject again with baseless conjectures. I'm going to move on.
Okay. I was just following your lead. You moved to showcase the cons of a fixed clock. You moved to showcase the pros of a variable clock.

Your argument was that you can extract more out of variable clocks than you could out of fixed clocks.
I went to agree with variable clocks are indeed great as you said they were, but variable boost clocks are based on thermal requirements or power requirements, not game code requirements.
I went on to agree that fixed clocks are indeed less efficient because it cannot capture the whole range effectively.

But you did not bother to discuss how variable clocks on PS5 works. Because it doesn't operate on thermal requirements.
Then I went to showcase how gamecode altering variable clocks will differ from how thermal output affects variable clocks, and if gamecode load is altering the clockspeeds, how developers are now stuck between choosing to maximize their load and reduce clock speed, or reduce their load and keep clockspeed high.

Or if you wanted to overburden your compute pipeline and cause your clockspeed to drop, then your fixed function pipeline would suffer from a clockspeed drop, thus any budgeting there would fall out. And so the developer is going to have to make a decision on where they want to put their budget because it can't be both. The developer is incapable of maximizing one aspect of the pipeline heavily without impacting another. And thus, like fixed clocks, it still suffers from inefficiency from fixing, just differently.
 
no June event for MS, it is postponed to August
So they didn't shift the dates to the right. They moved the June one to August. Which must also mean a change in their PR release schedule.
If xboxing was the Lockhart and pricing reveal it makes sense. Is pretty late, but it definitely gives them more room to see what Sony does.
 
Remember they never said they had a June event. I think they confused everyone when they said they would have an announcement every month, but ended up skipping mentioning anything in June. People assumed they would have something in June.
Usual MS PR confusion, as I also thought they came out and said they did have something in June after all.
 
Wasn't that about them still having their weekly shows -- Inside XBox or This Week On XBox?
 
Usual MS PR confusion, as I also thought they came out and said they did have something in June after all.

Yeah, they a bit sneaky with their plans. This is what Aaron posted on May 5.


Sounds like they had some plans for some kind of news, but it wasn't an event like that planned in July. I think they were being terse to keep the competition guessing.

Tommy McClain
 
Yeah, they a bit sneaky with their plans. This is what Aaron posted on May 5.


Sounds like they had some plans for some kind of news, but it wasn't an event like that planned in July. I think they were being terse to keep the competition guessing.

Tommy McClain
Maybe an xbox wire article, extra 5min on this week on xbox or something, so whatever it is, is still a go then possibly.

Doubt it would be an inside xbox as all their shows have been inside xbox anyway.
 
Microsoft: we will announce our price in august
Sony: ok, then we will announce ours in september
Microsoft: oh really? do you wanna dance? let's dance! we will sell without announcing the price, you will have to hand over your credit card and when we will make our mind the amount will be charged! Ah ah! Checkmate!
 
They have flipped everything I have understood about clocks and voltages with PS5.
No, they flipped everything you have understood about clocks and voltages with RDNA1, which the PS5 doesn't have.

With the Kepler -> Maxwell transition, nvidia improved the power/clock curves by over 25%, and they did so on the same 28nm TSMC process.
Why is it so hard to believe AMD would be able to do a similar jump with RDNA1 -> RDNA2? 1.8GHz * 1.25 = 2.25GHz.


Sony will have a thermal density problem

Ahá!

iUq8riv.png
 
No, they flipped everything you have understood about clocks and voltages with RDNA1, which the PS5 doesn't have.

With the Kepler -> Maxwell transition, nvidia improved the power/clock curves by over 25%, and they did so on the same 28nm TSMC process.
Why is it so hard to believe AMD would be able to do a similar jump with RDNA1 -> RDNA2? 1.8GHz * 1.25 = 2.25GHz.
hmm?
No, I don't have a problem believing the clockrate. Boost is just boost, and boost is just a number.
I have a problem that Cerny said that using fixed rates he said they couldn't achieve 2000Mhz.
But with boost at 2230Mhz, they can hold that number sustained.

Well that doesn't make any sense at all, because that's basically saying it's fixed.
As I've noted earlier from Anandtech:
I1KfTeb.png

You can see the Max Boost is 2044Mhz, but if we look at the Division 2, the average clock rate is 1760Mhz.
Average, that means 50% of the sample is above that number, and 50% of the population is below that number.
Which means, this is probably what it looks like:
3jQ6BbC.png


But people are saying that it's going to be like this
rUZbP4G.png


Which looks a lot closer to this than the above:
TuyqO2E.png


So that's where i hold the issue, because quite frankly, people seem to be under the assumption that the boost clocks are only going to suffer downclocking under power viruses like menus and maps or furmark. But if that were true, then we'd see similar behaviour for all games to never drop below boost. And that's just frankly not true, and you can see that by the results provided by Anandtech. And they can use any GPU and showcase that average clockrates are well below boost. Unless your are purposefully undermarketing your boost rate.

And so as I said earlier, if you want the best looking games, the best looking games are going to load up the GPU a lot more. Expect the boost to drop. And drop significant amounts. Not like 30-50 Mhz. Like hundreds of megahertz for those heavier titles. Unless you believe Sony has somehow discovered a way to make boost mode static, this is what I have an issue with.
 
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hmm?
No, I don't have a problem believing the clockrate. Boost is just boost, and boost is just a number.
I have a problem that Cerny said that using fixed rates he said they couldn't achieve 2000Mhz.
But with boost at 2230Mhz, they can hold that number sustained.

Well that doesn't make any sense at all, because that's basically saying it's fixed.
As I've noted earlier from Anandtech:

So that's where i hold the issue, because quite frankly, people seem to be under the assumption that the boost clocks are only going to suffer downclocking under power viruses like menus and maps or furmark. But if that were true, then we'd see similar behaviour for all games to never drop below boost. And that's just frankly not true, and you can see that by the results provided by Anandtech. And they can use any GPU and showcase that average clockrates are well below boost. Unless your are purposefully undermarketing your boost rate.

And so as I said earlier, if you want the best looking games, the best looking games are going to load up the GPU a lot more. Expect the boost to drop. And drop significant amounts. Not like 30-50 Mhz. Like hundreds of megahertz for those heavier titles. Unless you believe Sony has somehow discovered a way to make boost mode static, this is what I have an issue with.

I think what you will see is a lot of games designed for the one and ps4 will sustain the boost mode clocks but as the generation goes on it will miss the boost speeds more and more. The other worry is that the ps3 and ps4 are notorious for the fans getting louder and louder as they age and cooling capacity going down. So will we get a one two punch of games becoming a lot more demanding putting more strain and a dust filled cooler that is struggling to keep up?



I know mr fox says its a power issue , but even then when a power supply isn't cool enough voltage will drip and it will cause power issues.

But again this is a new design so they could have fixed issues from the ps3 and 4.

The only thing I can think of is that devs will be able to lock the console to a lower clock speed if they need too. So if they develop a game and it can't sustain boost then before shipping they will clock to what it can sustain ?
 
hmm?
No, I don't have a problem believing the clockrate. Boost is just boost, and boost is just a number.
I have a problem that Cerny said that using fixed rates he said they couldn't achieve 2000Mhz.
But with boost at 2230Mhz, they can hold that number sustained.

Well that doesn't make any sense at all, because that's basically saying it's fixed.
As I've noted earlier from Anandtech:
I1KfTeb.png

You can see the Max Boost is 2044Mhz, but if we look at the Division 2, the average clock rate is 1760Mhz.
Average, that means 50% of the sample is above that number, and 50% of the population is below that number.
Which means, this is probably what it looks like:
3jQ6BbC.png


But people are saying that it's going to be like this
rUZbP4G.png


Which looks a lot closer to this than the above:
TuyqO2E.png


So that's where i hold the issue, because quite frankly, people seem to be under the assumption that the boost clocks are only going to suffer downclocking under power viruses like menus and maps or furmark. But if that were true, then we'd see similar behaviour for all games to never drop below boost. And that's just frankly not true, and you can see that by the results provided by Anandtech. And they can use any GPU and showcase that average clockrates are well below boost. Unless your are purposefully undermarketing your boost rate.

And so as I said earlier, if you want the best looking games, the best looking games are going to load up the GPU a lot more. Expect the boost to drop. And drop significant amounts. Not like 30-50 Mhz. Like hundreds of megahertz for those heavier titles. Unless you believe Sony has somehow discovered a way to make boost mode static, this is what I have an issue with.

It will probably depend on the game. While what Sony does with the PS5 seems different from what AMD does now on its PC gpus, it doesn’t seem all that different to what AMD did with the last gen of Terrascale.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/4061/amds-radeon-hd-6970-radeon-hd-6950/9

PowerTune is a power containment technology, designed to allow AMD to contain the power consumption of their GPUs to a pre-determined value. In essence it’s Turbo in reverse: instead of having a low base clockspeed and higher turbo multipliers, AMD is setting a high base clockspeed and letting PowerTune cap GPU performance when it exceeds AMD’s TDP. The net result is that AMD can reduce the dynamic power range of their GPUs by setting high clockspeeds at high voltages to maximize performance, and then letting PowerTune cap GPU performance for the edge cases that cause GPU power consumption to exceed AMD’s preset value.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/4061/amds-radeon-hd-6970-radeon-hd-6950/8

This ultimately leads to a concept similar to dynamic range, defined by Wikipedia as: “the ratio between the largest and smallest possible values of a changeable quantity.” We typically use dynamic range when talking about audio and video, referring to the range between quiet and loud sounds, and dark and light imagery respectively. However power draw is quite similar in concept, with a variety of games and applications leading to a variety of loads on the GPU. Furthermore while dynamic range is generally a good thing for audio and video, it’s generally a bad thing for desktop GPU usage – low power utilization on a GPU-bound game means that there’s plenty of headroom for bumping up clocks and voltages to improve the performance of that game. Going back to our earlier example however, a GPU can’t be set this high under normal conditions, otherwise FurMark and similar applications will push the GPU well past TDP.

Outiers.png


The answer to the dynamic power range problem is to have variable clockspeeds; set the clocks low to keep power usage down on power-demanding games, and set the clocks high on power-light games.

With Powertune on the 6970, the only game that would trigger a limit and force a down clock other than Furture Mark or 3D Mark was Metro 2033. Metro average a clock of 850 MHz with a 880 MHz max clock on the 6970 with a 250W limit.

The 6970 only had 4 power states at the time so was mostly dependent on lowering clocks to maintain TDP limits. Metro averaged 850Mhz on the 6970 at 250W. It did so while maintaining max clocks 95% of the time. The 6970 was forced to drop quite a bit to 700 MHz for the other 5%. Anand states this was due to fact that core clocks and power consumption doesn’t scale linearly. AMD resolved this by doubling the power states on GCN.
 
I have a problem that Cerny said that using fixed rates he said they couldn't achieve 2000Mhz. But with boost at 2230Mhz, they can hold that number sustained.

Unless I'm mistaken, this is about the power usage profile across the APU (CPU and GPU) and the aggressive ramping of power at higher clocks for little gain. When you're running at fixed clocks, at the higher end of the curve you'll pulling crazy more power for minimal increase in performance and if you scale back a little bit of performance you actually save a lot more power that can by sent to CPU or GPU, whichever needs it more.

This is the Mark Cerny quote:

Mark Cerny said:
We also use AMD's Smart Shift technology and send any unused power from the CPU to the GPU so it can squeeze out a few more pixels the benefits of this strategy are quite large running a GPU at 2Ghz was looking like an unreachable target with the old fixed frequency strategy with this new paradigm we're able to run way over that in fact we have to cap the GPU frequency at two point 2.3Ghz so that we can guarantee that the on chip logic operates properly.

Whatever the fixed-clock of the CPU-side of the Sony's 2Ghz GPU profile was, going variable fixed it. This is the advantage.
 
A pc gpu usually is specced with baseclocks, not max clocks. An rdna2 gpu could be boosting to 2450mhz from 2000mhz.
In ps5’s case they advertise the other way around then were used to on pc.
9TF base, 10TF max performance.

No
10.28TF base with a slight drop in some very rare instances.
9TF was never mentionned, except from random people on the internet of course who like to cause drama :LOL:
 
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