Nintendo Switch Tech Speculation discussion

[function]

Others have asked for mobile only Switch, no? Wonder if they could split it into separate, cheaper versions for specific audiences? I guess if the cooperative gaming idea doesn't get anywhere that could well happen, with the controls being fixed. In a clamshell?

Indeed, they could continue to offer a common, interoperable software line but split out the mobile and static hardware. You can still use the same accessories, games etc and still play multiplayer between devices (take mobile Switch to a static Switch house) and use the cloud to sync games saves if you own both.

Switch as it currently is gives them that ability if they so choose. I wonder if Nintendo could end up supporting all "three pillars" (mobile, home, hybrid) from one chipset and one software lineup? Hybrid Switch might be a stepping stone.

Clamshell mobile only Switch might be ale to go fanless after a shrink, and as you say potentially ditch the joy cons. Smaller screen, no dock, no HS&fan, greatly simplified controlls ... $200 in 2018/2019?

Nintendo have options, at least.

 

[sebbbi]

But the PC has had low-level API implementations in games for over a year now, and aside from CPU-related gains, Maxwell hardware has gotten negligible (if not negative) results. This happens both on DX11 -> DX12 and OpenGL -> Vulkan and I reckon it happens mostly due to a spectacular effort on the driver front.
What makes you think the OpenGL ES -> NVN jump in TX1 will be so much better than OpenGL->Vulkan or DX11->DX12 in PCs with Maxwell graphics cards? Aside of course from the boost related to using FP16 shaders wherever possible.

SoCs have shared TDP. Vulkan and DX12 are huge reduction to CPU cost. Less driver overhead = more TDP available for doing productive work (either CPU or GPU). Mobile devs are frequently ranting how awful OpenGL ES is when trying to push lots of draw calls. Vulkan is a big improvement.

You are comparing engines designed for DX11 style API. Porting these existing engines to DX12/Vulkan isn't going to bring good results, especially if you are not willing to do drastical changes that require dropping DX11 support in the refactoring process. In current games, you are mostly looking at custom developer made "DX11 drivers". Game still uses the same internal engine graphics API abstraction it used with DX11. To see real gains, we need to wait for engines designed for the new APIs. I am talking about bindless resources, multidraw, split barriers (overlap), cross lane ops, buffer predicates and async compute here. Current engines only use these low level APIs to make draw calls cheaper for the CPU (that is the easy path). But these APIs offer big GPU gains as well, if used properly.

The amount of platform specific optimizations (to an engine and to a game) are tightly tied to the customer base and expected life time of that platform. Nintendo Switch will certainly exceed life time and sales of any single Android phone or Shield device. It is only natural that developers spend more resources on devices that are relevant for longer time and sell more copies of their game. It is common that devs spend months of time to low level optimize thier game on a console platform. I have never heard a developer spending months of time to optimize for a single phone or tablet model. This is the biggest difference and it also explains why low level APIs bring more gains on consoles.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Looks like the console might support bluetooth headsets for voice chat after all:
https://mynintendonews.com/2017/01/...ean-voice-chat-isnt-only-handled-through-app/

SoCs have shared TDP. Vulkan and DX12 are huge reduction to CPU cost. Less driver overhead = more TDP available for doing productive work (either CPU or GPU). Mobile devs are frequently ranting how awful OpenGL ES is when trying to push lots of draw calls. Vulkan is a big improvement.

I'm not so sure about the TDP advantage being a factor here. That would definitely be the case in tablet/smartphone SoCs, or mobile/low-power x86 SoCs/APUs with variable clocks depending on TDP.

But in this case the clocks are locked (according to eurogamer it's 300MHz GPU and 1GHz CPU in handheld mode). Sure, actual utilization (not just clock and voltage) plays a huge part in power consumption, but in this case there's probably no turbo functionality, and downwards throttling will probably only ever occur in rare thermal "emergencies". Though I believe in that case it would be better design to just turn the thing off instead of messing up with gameplay.

As for the rest, all I can do is read and learn

 

[sebbbi]

I'm not so sure about the TDP advantage being a factor here. That would definitely be the case in tablet/smartphone SoCs, or mobile/low-power x86 SoCs/APUs with variable clocks depending on TDP.

If the locks are locked, then you only get better battery life by saving power. But Switch already forces you to save power (as it is factory downclocked compared to Tegra X1). Also it is unfair to compare a PC with 4 GHz i7 to a 1 GHz mobile CPU. You have plenty of extra CPU cycles to burn on a i7 when playing current gen console ports (targeting Jaguar netbook CPU). This is why CPU advantages of low level APIs are almost invisible on PC. But if Eurogamer is correct, Switch will have down clocked 1 GHz CPU. You definitely want to have as much as possible CPU savings from a low level API. Same is true for current gen Jaguar based consoles and on phones and tablets. Desktop PC is practically the only device that doesn't gain that much from the CPU time reduction of low level APIs. And GPU time improvements require using the new features.

 

[Reznor007]

Looks like the console might support bluetooth headsets for voice chat after all:
https://mynintendonews.com/2017/01/...ean-voice-chat-isnt-only-handled-through-app/

I had heard about switch headsets before, and was curious about this as well. My thinking is that the app operates as a second screen of sorts to manage things like friend lists or muting obnoxious people on chat rather than it being the voice chat client itself.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

If the locks are locked, then you only get better battery life by saving power. But Switch already forces you to save power (as it is factory downclocked compared to Tegra X1). Also it is unfair to compare a PC with 4 GHz i7 to a 1 GHz mobile CPU. You have plenty of extra CPU cycles to burn on a i7 when playing current gen console ports (targeting Jaguar netbook CPU).

When I referred to low-power x86 I was actually talking about the 5-15W Core Y and U models, or the more recent 12-15W Carrizo and Bristol Ridge where TDP plays a big role in the GPU/CPU clocks.

 

[Blazkowicz]

Others have asked for mobile only Switch, no? Wonder if they could split it into separate, cheaper versions for specific audiences? I guess if the cooperative gaming idea doesn't get anywhere that could well happen, with the controls being fixed. In a clamshell?

Both requests seem to be about removing the Joycons, so as to pay less. Why not, it would be like when Microsoft cave in and sold the new Xbox without the Kinect.
Nintendo didn't sell the Wii U without the tablet though.

The Joycon does have some value. The NES came out with two controllers and a gun included, SNES came with two controllers, the Famicom had two controllers hard wired. Here, likewise the console supports two players out of the box with what you're given.
Even if you go for the scandalous $110 Joycon + power grip, you gain the ability to play four player games like Mario Kart, fighting, etc.
At $70 a controller on other systems, to play local four-player will cost you $210, pretty much the price of a whole damn console. I doubt the latest Call of Duty PS4 Pro 4k Ghost edition Lost Cities etc. offers four way split-screen multiplayer, on top of that.

 

[AlNom]

Others have asked for mobile only Switch, no?

Needs a new name then.

 

[Lalaland]

Needs a new name then.

The Switched...

I'll get my coat.

 

[AlNom]

The Switched...

I'll get my coat.

BeSwitched. :O

 

[Deleted member 13524]

At $70 a controller on other systems, to play local four-player will cost you $210, pretty much the price of a whole damn console.

Are these Canadian dollars? Here in Euroland we can get the controller for 50€ or less, and in the US I can see it can be purchased for $46.
So it's ~$150 for 3 gamepads vs. $80 for the Switch. Still a lot more money but each single gamepad is a lot more valuable (e.g. can be used for PC games) than each JoyCon.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sony-Dualshock-4-Controller-Black-PS4-Playstation-4/28802345
Regardless, I think it might be unusual for a single person to carry the burden of having to pay for all the controllers. Usually it's the friends coming over who bring their own controllers, at least in my case..
Maybe if it's a family where both parents and sons play videogames.

I doubt the latest Call of Duty PS4 Pro 4k Ghost edition Lost Cities etc. offers four way split-screen multiplayer, on top of that.

Nope, but Rocket League does
And if Sega is making a Sonic All-Stars Racing game (I bet they are), it'll definitely support 4-player split-screen, like its predecessor did on the previous generation of consoles. That game is damned fun, BTW.

 

[Esrever]

Switch'm™

 

[Osamar]

As you slice the base, Witch is enough.

 

[Malo]

Others have asked for mobile only Switch, no? Wonder if they could split it into separate, cheaper versions for specific audiences? I guess if the cooperative gaming idea doesn't get anywhere that could well happen, with the controls being fixed. In a clamshell?

Then people will ask why the mobile version is only $50 less rather than $90.

 

[BRiT]

Then people will ask why the mobile version is only $50 less rather than $90.

I think Nintendo needs the following SKU: Nintendo Switch without the Dock and without the JoyCons for $130 ($300 - $90 - $80) and let us use any USB or BluTooth Controller. Even I might be tempted to buy into that system for the 4 to 6 Nintendo games that will be released for it.

 

[Malo]

It's simply not possible for them to break it up yet because of the accessories pricing. Maybe in a year or so once they decide to drop the price of everything.

 

[Eteric]

Before Iwata passed, he did say that the NX would be a family of platforms. So I don't see why they wouldn't do it after a year or two. A dedicated handheld Switch might be possible after some shrinks, which would be the switch without the dock and joy-cons. They could make a Switchbox for those who never play on the go.

If I were Nintendo, I'd also be pursuing talented mobile developers to get the best (and full) versions of popular mobile games. Despite me not being a mobile guy (I refuse to spend loads of money on phones), I can recognize that they have some talented teams working on phone games. One example is them getting Puzzles & Dragons Z on 3DS, though I'd probably go after more demanding phone games.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

This Switch already is a handheld, there is no addition hardware in the dock. I don't see them getting rid of the joycons either because it allows two player action on the go which imo is a advantage. Yes Nintendo priced their peripherals rather high but everybody does the same, markup on accessories simply is very high. On the plus side Nintendo for all their faults doesn't skim on build quality so changes are you don't ever have to buy a new joycon.

 

[eastmen]

Switch game boy 4-5 inch screen with the controllers intergrated nto the system. Should be able to fit inside a pocket. Would be good for kids like the 2ds was.

Then switch home which is just the switch as a small box ala shield tv. No screen or anything.

They should be able to shave a lot of money off both those products and could open up new markets

 

[Eteric]

Switch game boy 4-5 inch screen with the controllers intergrated nto the system. Should be able to fit inside a pocket. Would be good for kids like the 2ds was.

Then switch home which is just the switch as a small box ala shield tv. No screen or anything.

They should be able to shave a lot of money off both those products and could open up new markets

I think this is pretty much whats going to happen. We might even see the portable version in two years with a dongle so you won't even need a dock. I fully expect a version without a screen as well.

There's a lot of places they can go with it if they want to, tbh.