Your opinion on America's policy on Isreal

zurich

Kendoka
Veteran
Was thinking about this the other day.. and I figured no better people to poise the question to then the intelligent folk at B3D! ;)

Basically, how do you feel about America's unwavering foreign policy on Isreal.. the aid, the weapons, the political support, all of it.

Oh, and for the record, a non-Isreal supporter does not a nazi make! So feel free to voice your opinions!
 
I'm more concerned about our policy towards the Saudi regime. Atleast Israel is a democracy.

The aid to Israel is rather irrelevant now. It's economy is built up enough, and they have enough reserves of weapons, plus nukes, that even without US support, they can continue to do whatever they want.
 
I think those people who assume that we could just tell Israel what to do and they would do it, don't know Israel very well. It is easy to blame the U.S. for every problem around the world as if all we had to do was raise our finger to make these governments toe whatever line we want, but it isn't true.
 
and they have enough reserves of weapons, plus nukes, that even without US support, they can continue to do whatever they want.

Personally, thats where my problem is.. the weapons & nukes. Hell, the US runs around the world trying to stop countries from amassing nukes, but if they like you, you get 'em for free? :oops:

I think those people who assume that we could just tell Israel what to do and they would do it, don't know Israel very well.

Isn't it the other way around? :?
 
Right....

The US government is in the pocket of the jews.

I hear they eat children too. (The jews, not the US government)
 
Atleast Israel is a democracy.

If you're Jewish that is. Most government services are denied to non-Jews since they are more often than not barred from serving in the military and they would also be unable to go to Yeshiva. This is a way to deny services based on race/religon/ethnicity without having a law that expressly does it. You can also see how Israeli policy targets Israeli Arab and Druze villages by regularly denying basic servies offered even in the Occupied Territories like electricity and water, yet non-Jews still have to pay taxes. And yes, water and electricity are still state-owned and operated government agencies (as they should be), but then again, given the Israel budget crunch, there have been pushes by individuals to privatize these basic services so this may end that practice assuming these entities would even have any economic incentive to bring services to the regions. Even if this were to happen, I'd doubt the welfare of these villages would improve at all.

You also cannot live anywhere you want either, especially if your a non-Jew. The JNF regularly denies renting (it's virtually impossible to buy land in Israel since they want to prevent Jews from actually buying the land and giving it back to their legal Palestinian owners) land to non-Jews for one reason or another. JNF reforms are coming and there has been a push, by Likhud no less, to start allowing the sale of land.

If you're a Jew it's more ... subtle. The Israeli government subsidizes and offers so much free services for it's illegal settlements, it's almost an inevitiablity that the poorest of the Israeli population HAVE to move to the territories. This was one of the policies Sharon had instituted when he was the Minister in charge of it; policies which rebuilt his shattered political career after the Lebanon mess he got Israel into.

Even the newspapers are regularly censored.

They also imprisoned a man for 18 years (11 in solitary) for blowing the whistle on what most people knew anyways. Israel had the bomb. The agency that controls the bombs is literally beyond Knesset accountability. They can arrest and detain anyone they want. The problem now is that others are coming out with stories of near nuclear-accidents, attempts by the Israelis to land-swap with Palestine and secretly giving Palestine a nuclear waste dump, contamintated workers and rampant cancers, etc.

Even after all of this, Israel is more of a democracy than the USA since they actually counted votes and determined their leadership that way instead of running to the SCOTUS for a Presidential selection. :)

The aid to Israel is rather irrelevant now.

Israel receives more than $3 billion, and some say $5 billion if you read the US budget's fine print each year. That turns out to be about $21,000 for each Israeli. The average Israeli even receives another $5000 per year, on average, from the state of Germany. Not that your average Israeli ever directly get any of this money, unless you refer to the $494,000 each Israeli family received as a bribe to evacuate the Sinai under the Camp David accords during the Carter administration. Anyone who still believes crime doesn't pay should read up on this little issue. Then again, the Israeli government doesn't get free reign with this money either, since, by law, there are restrictions on what may or may not be purchased, or where it may or may not be spent. And surprise, surprise! Eighty percent of it is usually spent in the USA and some have told me there are actually legal demands written in by Congress to force Israel to spend most in the USA. So, is Congress helping Israel, or helping it's corporate backers? Could this support actually be a cover for blatant corporate welfare?

You take this huge sum of cash out of any similar-sized economy and you have a disaster in the making.

What products do Israelis actually make? Very little. They don't have to. Their lives are largely insulated from the realities of world markets because of this huge influx of free cash. Even Intel openned a plant into Israel (on confiscated land no less) because of the tax and government grants. Remember when the Pentium 3 was supposed to come out? Originally they were to be made in the newer Israeli plants but shifted once news circulated that Intel's plant was built on illegal territory, the production of Intel's flagship of that time was shifted elsewhere. Like any other corporation that receives free money, once that well dries up, they're gone to other greener pastures. It's a race to the bottom and Israel couldn't compete without drastic cuts to their lifestyles.

It's economy is built up enough, and they have enough reserves of weapons, plus nukes, that even without US support, they can continue to do whatever they want.

As for Israeli economy, their banks are in trouble, their pension funds are largely insolvent and literally without cheap labour from the territories to work product for export, their economy barely functions. Like anywhere else on the planet, economics eventually drives overall policy.

Israel couldn't afford to maintain a nuclear program without the massive influx of cash from the USA; they couldn't afford it by themselves. A nuclear device is not all that complicated to make; after all, it was the only weapon system of WW2 that operated 100% correctly the first time it was used. They're just really, really expensive, and the industry needed to keep an arsenal would be huge drain on any nations treasury. Few nations are unable to do so without incurring huge social distorting problems. Look at the state of North Korea , Pakistan and India.
 
RussSchultz said:
Right....

The US government is in the pocket of the jews.

I hear they eat children too. (The jews, not the US government)

Hey, I'm just going on that infamous quote from Sharon ;)

I saw an interesting bit on 60 minutes a few months ago about the grass roots alliance between the American Christian Conservative, and Isreal. They grilled the Reverand (forget his name) pretty hard about it, and basically got him to say that Islam is the bastard child religion of Judiasm/Christianity, and that there can never be an understanding between the two.

Again, I don't get it; why all the support? Is it to basically have a Western foothold in the middle east? I mean, Isreal is more or less a rock, they have no resources to speak of. What would be the downside to pulling the plug?
 
Rabid Christian evangelicals only support Israel so that a large number of Jews can be herded together so that when Jesus returns, he'll have an easier time in killing all but 144,000 as the Bible has decreed.
 
Willmeister said:
Rabid Christian evangelicals only support Israel so that a large number of Jews can be herded together so that when Jesus returns, he'll have an easier time in killing all but 144,000 as the Bible has decreed.

Alright, that was disturbing.
 
Willmeister said:
Yeah, it's disturbing and on so many levels. But it's also true.

Having known quite a few devout (or rabid in your words) christian evangelicals, I've never heard anybody talk about this. Or is it only discussed in code and secret speak when outsiders are around?
 
Beware any Christian who can quote revelations and quite emphatic about it. Millenarian cults... They're out there... To me, they're just like any other subversive hate group out there.
 
RussSchultz said:
Willmeister said:
Yeah, it's disturbing and on so many levels. But it's also true.

Having known quite a few devout (or rabid in your words) christian evangelicals, I've never heard anybody talk about this. Or is it only discussed in code and secret speak when outsiders are around?

Read the book of Revelations. I grew up immersed in this stuff. That's why I was laughing so hard when I read Willmeister's posts. :)

Many hard line christian evangelicals, and by proxy many hard line neocons, support Israel because it is believed that unless there is an Israeli state, Jesus will not make his return. This is because in Revelations, the existence of an Israeli state is the precursor to the return of Jesus and the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, not to mention the establishment of the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, and then Armageddon, yadda yadda yadda.
 
Yes, I know all that.

But I have never heard anybody advocating to round up the jews so that god can slaughter as a reason to support Israel.
 
zurich said:
and they have enough reserves of weapons, plus nukes, that even without US support, they can continue to do whatever they want.

Personally, thats where my problem is.. the weapons & nukes. Hell, the US runs around the world trying to stop countries from amassing nukes, but if they like you, you get 'em for free? :oops:

The US didn't give Israel the bomb, they developed it themselves.
 
Some of the scientists who helped develop the atom bomb were Jewish, I believe? I expect many of these might have gone to live in Israel upon it's creation, hence their ability to develop atomic weapons themselves.
 
Willmeister said:
Even after all of this, Israel is more of a democracy than the USA since they actually counted votes and determined their leadership that way instead of running to the SCOTUS for a Presidential selection. :)

Yeah, I guess we should just get rid of the judicial branch and there are problems in the executive or legislative branches, we will just accept whatever the announced outcome is. I guess I can't expect a Canadaian to understand the purpose of the Electoral College or the equal protection clause. But you're already shaping up to be someone who looks like he reads political diatribes and then parrots them on message boards.


Israel receives more than $3 billion, and some say $5 billion if you read the US budget's fine print each year. That turns out to be about $21,000 for each Israeli. The average Israeli even receives another $5000 per year, on average, from the state of Germany.

Balderdash. There are 6 million Israelis. $3billion/6million = $500 per Israeli. $21,000 per Israeli * 6 million = $120 BILLION. You're two orders of magnitude off. $5000 * 6 million = $30 BILLION. So Germany is giving THIRTY BILLION to Israel every year? Where the hell are you getting your figures from? Arafat's School of Jew's Blood Sucking and Children Eating Statistics?

You take this huge sum of cash out of any similar-sized economy and you have a disaster in the making.

The Israeli economy size is $122 billion, including $28 billion in exports. $3 billion represents 2% of the economy, and by your own admission, they spend most of this money on imports from the US. The loss of the US aid would result in roughly 2% of their GDP disappearing, or about 1 years growth assuming the world economy was growing. And a huge chunk of that foreign aid goes to buy US military equipment, which doesn't really go into the economy of Israel. The US receives a much larger influx to cover its trade deficit.


What products do Israelis actually make? Very little. They don't have to.

Nonsense. Ignorance. The Israeli economy is way more diversified than Arab economies which are based on centralized resource extraction and export. Israel is mostly self-sufficient in agriculture, and exports machinery and electronics equipment, along with chemicals and textiles to the tune of $28 billion worth. For perspective, South Korea, with roughly 8 times the population, exports about $160 billion.

You're obviously blinded by hatred of Israel, and wrapped up in reading any negative perspectives on the country you can find, not being critical of your own data, and ignoring positives.
 
Balderdash. There are 6 million Israelis. $3billion/6million = $500 per Israeli. $21,000 per Israeli * 6 million = $120 BILLION. You're two orders of magnitude off. $5000 * 6 million = $30 BILLION. So Germany is giving THIRTY BILLION to Israel every year? Where the hell are you getting your figures from? Arafat's School of Jew's Blood Sucking and Children Eating Statistics?

Actually, when you look at that, it doesn't make sense... I wish I could remmeber where the $21,000 came from...

My point wasn't Arab World = Good, Israel = Bad. Israel is a bit more of a democracy than the other places in the region, but hardly one to hold up as a model. It's like saying that apartheid South Africa was a democracy. It was, if you were white.

I guess I can't expect a Canadaian to understand the purpose of the Electoral College or the equal protection clause.

The 'equal protection' defense for the appointment of Bush was as fake as a three dollar bill. Bugliosi and many other commentators, even conservatives ones, laughed at the use of the fourteenth amendment.

As for the electoral college, all I ask is this. Don't you find it disturbing that the Electoral College had to be used instead of vote counting? That's actually a rather disturbing precendent don't you think?
 
No, because I accept the fundamental premise behind the electoral college, and I despise direct democracy, and prefer a Republic. I hold high disdain for the trivial ways in which people in the popular vote pick candidates and issues. And let's not forget that the networks declare that Bush lost halfway through the national election, causing many people to stay at home and not vote, which affect the outcome of the popular vote.

Anyway, Gore would have won had he not delayed so long and insisted on a full recount in the beginning, but like Bush, his campaign was trying to manipulate the system to get the result he wanted, and he made the mistake of stepping over constitutional protections in his attempt to squeeze votes.

The fact is, in the US, voting districts are drawn to ensure winners in particular parties, and Gore was insisting for a recount only in those districts which were heavily Democratic. If I was living in Florida and Dade County got a recount, but my neighborhood did not, I would feel disenfranchised. Wouldn't there be hanging chads in my Republican county as well?

Given the closeness of the vote, the only fair thing to do would be to have a full recount, since it is likely there would also be a similar rate of statistical error in other districts.


It all comes down to the fact that the race was a statistical tie. I don't consider a difference of 0.6% to be a statistically relevant indictator, since the margin of error could have been much higher.
 
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