Yamauchi on the PS3: "...beginning of a new world..."

[Azrael]

Don't be a troll, you could say that about Microsoft, Nintendo, or pretty much any company for that matter. All this is, is a PR statement, nothing more. What are you expecting them to say, "The PS3 is crap, I can't believe we are developing for this dump!" ?.

Anyway this is far from on topic, so let's get back to it.

Yes you could but we were talking about Sony. Don't be an idiot.

 

[_phil_]

Second, I've already expressed my doubts about that Getaway demo being software rendered... I think it's using the GPU to do the graphics.

This is true,imo .The scene is obviously rendered on the GPU.The point of the demo was rather that the stress was more on the cell side (handling of individual passers-by ,cars ,street traffic ,and all...) than on GPU side.

 

[Azrael]

This is true,imo .The scene is obviously rendered on the GPU.The point of the demo was rather that the stress was more on the cell side (handling of individual passers-by ,cars ,street traffic ,and all...) than on GPU side.

What do you mean, it was demoing the AI?

 

[_phil_]

What do you mean, it was demoing the AI?

In short ,yes.

 

[Azrael]

In short ,yes.

AI is the Cell's weakest point, being that it lacks dynamic branching. I can't see what they were trying to prove except maybe that it can actually do it with some reasonable effectiveness with the right code.

 

[LunchBox]

Is it normal for the Japanese to goto such great melo dramatic extremes when talking....

They kind of do...

my friend would sometimes compare his sadness to cherry blossoms slowly falling of trees in a winter breeze...

 

[London Geezer]

Huh? What? And are you serious. You make it sound like some form of HDR and/or can be done with the CELL help. This has been debunked by the smartest people here. Can you please explain a little more.

Thanks.

Well the fact that it can be done was demonstrated by Sony with the first Getaway demo, remember? Obviously, if it's true that that demo was running on Cell 100% which i find a bit suspicious.
The problem could be that in the end it might be just cheaper (in terms of performance) to let the RSX deal with it all.
You know, it's one of those things, any chip could do real-tracing, but at what speed? Same thing here, Cell (or any other chip) could do anything, but how fast?

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Not GPU, CELL only

This is true,imo .The scene is obviously rendered on the GPU.The point of the demo was rather that the stress was more on the cell side (handling of individual passers-by ,cars ,street traffic ,and all...) than on GPU side.

It is quite apparent it does not include programmable pixel-shader functions. It is just very high polygon count with some textures. Very simple. Look at basic shading on cars, no bump-mapping on side-walk etc... Only looks good because of very high polygon, cluttered appearance due to pedestrians and traffic, and HDR lighting.

 

[LunchBox]

It is quite apparent it does not include programmable pixel-shader functions. It is just very high polygon count with some textures. Very simple. Look at basic shading on cars, no bump-mapping on side-walk etc... Only looks good because of very high polygon, cluttered appearance due to pedestrians and traffic, and HDR lighting.

yet it got the job done...

the poor textures didn't fail the demo on showing its "next gen" affinity...

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Msaa

Isn't this diagram rather misleading...

This seems to be where Powderkeg's confusion is coming from. The AA requires the subsamples to be rendered on the GPU proper, and the eDRAM only handles the blending, but as it's written there it suggests the eDRAM adds the AA without the GPU proper being involved. Of course one single diagram should eb used to understand the entire intricacies of a render process!

MSAA sub-samples created on eDRAM unit using z-data. This is also why it is easy to do MSAA on CELL.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Future graphics

yet it got the job done...

the poor textures didn't fail the demo on showing its "next gen" affinity...

Yes. With future generations of consoles textures and geometry simulation utilizing texturized data will become less important to appearance of realism as polygon count becomes even higher than possible in PS3.

 

[Diesel2]

I haven't been able to read the entire thread (it's just too long), but there appears to be all this talk that PS3 won't be able to HDR with AA.

How is it then, that Half-Life2 can accomplish both on present day cards?

 

[_phil_]

It is quite apparent it does not include programmable pixel-shader functions. It is just very high polygon count with some textures. Very simple. Look at basic shading on cars, no bump-mapping on side-walk etc... Only looks good because of very high polygon, cluttered appearance due to pedestrians and traffic, and HDR lighting.

you're either blind or joking.All is per pixel +amibiant occulsion , the sun is dynamic and casting soft shadows .I concede that if you're looking for'chocolate plastic" (tm) kind of bumpmapping everywhere ,you won't find it.It's a rather tastefull demo.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Nvidia

I haven't been able to read the entire thread (it's just too long), but there appears to be all this talk that PS3 won't be able to HDR with AA.

How is it then, that Half-Life2 can accomplish both on present day cards?

7800GTX can only do HDR or AA, not both. Hence it is possible that RSX will do HDR and, if developer chooses it is needed, MSAA done on CELL.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Huh? What? And are you serious. You make it sound like some form of HDR and/or can be done with the CELL help. This has been debunked by the smartest people here. Can you please explain a little more.

Thanks.

It was never debunked, only discussed. Faf was a key backer of the idea various graphical techniques could be managed on Cell. These unconventional render processes that use Cell and RSX in wierd and magical ways are difficult to discuss as they haven't been invented yet. We don't even know what data can be shared back and forth between the two processors so can't even hazard guesses what level of integration is possible, let alone how they'd impact performance elsewhere.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Bump-mapping?

you're either blind or joking.All is per pixel +amibiant occulsion , the sun is dynamic and casting soft shadows .I concede that if you're looking for'chocolate plastic" (tm) kind of bumpmapping everywhere ,you won't find it.It's a rather tastefull demo.

There is no bump-mapping of any kind anywhere in my video. Maybe we are looking at different demo videos.

 

[London Geezer]

There is no bump-mapping of any kind anywhere in my video. Maybe we are looking at different demo videos.

That's what phil is saying. The fact that there is no bump mapping doesn't mean that there aren't any pixel-based effects. Bump mapping is not the only per-pixel effect we have you know...

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Misunderstanding.

That's what phil is saying. The fact that there is no bump mapping doesn't mean that there aren't any pixel-based effects. Bump mapping is not the only per-pixel effect we have you know...

Then I have misunderstoof Phil. Thank you for explanation.

Yes programmable per-pixel shader effects are of many varieties and it is true that when CELL is rendering pixels it can act like programmable pixel-shader as well but I do not see evidence of such action in the video I have. Yes the lighting model is sophisticated and polygon count is extremely high but there seems to be a minimum of "effects". Even most cars have no reflections of any kind, only high polygons and lighting. Yes some cars/buses as well as some windows have but most cars do not. Nevertheless video is impressive and is good showcase of CELL's power for complex geometry and lighting.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Pixel shaders are used in post effects too, like bloom and colour balancing.

 

[_phil_]

Then I have misunderstoof Phil. Thank you for explanation.

Yes programmable per-pixel shader effects are of many varieties and it is true that when CELL is rendering pixels it can act like programmable pixel-shader as well but I do not see evidence of such action in the video I have. Yes the lighting model is sophisticated and polygon count is extremely high but there seems to be a minimum of "effects". Even most cars have no reflections of any kind, only high polygons and lighting. Yes some cars/buses as well as some windows have but most cars do not. Nevertheless video is impressive and is good showcase of CELL's power for complex geometry and lighting.

in my videos ,cars have reflection (not all car have the same shinyness ,it's more or less) .Try to fin the second video ,where sun is animated.there is hirez cubemaps on the cars.
also:
http://www.presence-pc.com/images/dossiers/ps3/gateway2.jpg

i thing you underestimate that demo visually speaking.