XB360 hasn't got a scaling chip?

[Carl B]

look at the original cnet story... and read my edit... if i remember correctly the Cnet story was to merely compare the graphics real time between systems (when PS3 released).

It took the Arstec route iirc and the ANA story went in a different direction a week or two later when the PS3 scaling fiasco blew up and people with HDtv's that got bumped down to 480p got pissed.

that's when the chip story took on a life of its own. :smile:

I don't disagree with you; the scaling chip issue was played off of the PS3's lack of such functionality. But since MS full well wanted such comparisons to be drawn, I have trouble giving them a pass on the particulars they provided in terms of explaining their solution to the public. They chose to portray the solution as hardware-based because they knew to the person reading of average knowledge, that would just inherently seem more impressive, and contrast with Sony's lack of such.

I think if anything, perhaps what I forgot was that Ars was at a larger event rather than having someone specifically set up an interview with them. In that context, it's less of a transgression in my book, and I'll begin the cool down process over on my end....

(Took out the IGN-related posts)

 

[Carl B]

However, I'm not convinced that either the Ars article or Amir is wrong. Amir is a video guy and he's answering questions related to to HD DVD handling / playback on 360. Video scaling is not display scaling - in a computing device like this, video scaling is usually performed before well before display scaling so that overalys can be done; when the full image is composited together this is then sent to the display scalar in order for everything to be scaled to the target resolution of the set.

Fair enough. I have to say though that I'm sort of here reading what you're writing from a logical truism standpoint, but it assumes we all have no further information than that out in the public. Yet I have this weird feeling like you would actually know what the exact state of the hardware truly is Dave.

 

[Tap In]

....
However, I'm not convinced that either the Ars article or Amir is wrong. ....

yep... a lot of jumping to conclusions going on in this thread.

 

[rounin]

that PR crap has been deleted and banned from this site AFAIK. at least it has been in the past., so please stop using it as bait.

I was not aware that it has banned or deleted from this site. However I posted the article that MS sent to IGN and other publishers regarding their supposed scientific approach to Xbox360 to PS3 to show that MS is not new to this kind of underhanded PR-but-professionally-packaged propaganda way of doing things, and so it should not be a surprise if they did the same to Arstechnica.

They are simply not above this way of delivering things and are fully aware of how to propagate rumors - by contaminating the enthusiast's sources, and having information trickle through that way.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Then you don't go to Ars for a feature, you to to Gamespot for a soundbite. These guys purposefully chose to wrap themselves in the credibility of a tech site, but they didn't hold up their end of the bargain.

I think you're being a bit harsh on them. I wouldn't credit a PR showcase as differentiating between websites. I imagine it likely that they cobbled together a collection of facts and figures and went touring to whoever would listen, justto get exposure. A deliberate attempt to harness technical credibility from a technical site? Maybe it happens, but I think that less likely than a standard PR campaign uniform across media outlets with dumbed-down tech. Perhaps the hardware scaling component is on Xenos, but they wanted a magical chip to show to distinguish between a 'hardware scaler' and 'doing it on the GPU' that the ignorant who don't understand different functional units on one package won't get confused over!

 

[Carl B]

I think you're being a bit harsh on them. I wouldn't credit a PR showcase as differentiating between websites. I imagine it likely that they cobbled together a collection of facts and figures and went touring to whoever would listen, justto get exposure. A deliberate attempt to harness technical credibility from a technical site? Maybe it happens, but I think that less likely than a standard PR campaign uniform across media outlets with dumbed-down tech. Perhaps the hardware scaling component is on Xenos, but they wanted a magical chip to show to distinguish between a 'hardware scaler' and 'doing it on the GPU' that the ignorant who don't understand different functional units on one package won't get confused over!

Well, I don't like proxy hardware to stand in for the true performers of a given function when receiving an 'explanation,' but yeah... I agree I am being too harsh. My initial reaction was premised on the idea that MS had gone to Ars specifically with this chip and to discuss it; I forgot that the context was basically a traveling roadshow. Worry not, I'm cooling off over here.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Good. Too much global warming to have you contributing to it!

 

[MonkeyLicker]

I was not aware that it has banned or deleted from this site. However I posted the article that MS sent to IGN and other publishers regarding their supposed scientific approach to Xbox360 to PS3 to show that MS is not new to this kind of underhanded PR-but-professionally-packaged propaganda way of doing things, and so it should not be a surprise if they did the same to Arstechnica.

They are simply not above this way of delivering things and are fully aware of how to propagate rumors - by contaminating the enthusiast's sources, and having information trickle through that way.

All of that means nothing considering the fact the 360 has been able to scale since day 1. The only thing that matters to them and most people is that they could and SONY couldn't.
Considering that there is no performance difference between 720p and scaled 1080p, it pretty obvious that there is either dedicated hardware present somewhere in the system or the overhead is very small.
Should they have told the whole story? sure, but they only went a different route.
People don't care how the system did it, only that it did.

 

[ERP]

There is dedicated hardware. It was designed by the WebTV group I believe.
You guys take every quote from any even vaguely official source far too literally.

 

[AlNom]

Video scaling is not display scaling - in a computing device like this, video scaling is usually performed before well before display scaling so that overlays can be done; when the full image is composited together this is then sent to the display scaler in order for everything to be scaled to the target resolution of the set.

Whoa. Trying to get my head wrapped around this. Could you (or someone else) please put this into context with respect to a game and a movie?

(and btw, I have never before seen/heard "scale" be used so often that my brain has lost its meaning)

Good. Too much global warming to have you contributing to it!

Wait, are you saying he's more powerful than Chuck Norris?

Chuck Norris grinds his coffee with his teeth and boils the water with his own rage.

 

[Dr. Nick]

Fair enough. I have to say though that I'm sort of here reading what you're writing from a logical truism standpoint, but it assumes we all have no further information than that out in the public. Yet I have this weird feeling like you would actually know what the exact state of the hardware truly is Dave.

I think this is part of the reason why people post the same subject over and over again. Eventhough most of these overly done threads don't bring anything new to light there is always the chance that eventually someone somewhere will spill the beans just like one poster here did with the RSX and CELL. I didn't matter if he was right or wrong but that he got the people who are in the know to actually start really talking and reveal stuff that was to most of us still a mystery.

 

[nAo]

someone somewhere will spill the beans just like one poster here did with the RSX and CELL.

ppl that "spill the beans" often don't know what they're talking about

 

[-tkf-]

so Carl in one breath you say Scott was "lying" to Arstch in the next amir is not to be trusted. so who is correct in this story?

Amir is stating facts when he is talking and many take his words for facts though much of what he says is purely PR speak. He is the perfect Microsoft employer one positive word about a competitor will be followed by two negatives and a example of why "his" is much better and anyone should be able to see that.

Carl was being friendly when he called him a slippery eel.

 

[MonkeyLicker]

There is dedicated hardware. It was designed by the WebTV group I believe.
You guys take every quote from any even vaguely official source far too literally.

Forgot about the WebTV folks.
At the very least this thread brought some nice and peaceful conversation, so I guess that's not such a bad thing.

 

[Truespeed]

All of that means nothing considering the fact the 360 has been able to scale since day 1. The only thing that matters to them and most people is that they could and SONY couldn't.
Considering that there is no performance difference between 720p and scaled 1080p, it pretty obvious that there is either dedicated hardware present somewhere in the system or the overhead is very small.
Should they have told the whole story? sure, but they only went a different route.
People don't care how the system did it, only that it did.

Well, one thing we're sure of right now is that there is no dedicated hardware scaler in the Xbox 360. As for how the scaling is being performed by the Xenos - this is the next area of speculation. For one to use the argument of no discernible performance difference between 720p and 1080p as their basis for their theory of a true hardware scaler is premature and inaccurate. Since there is no baseline you can't really compare the before and after. For all we know ATI and Microsoft may have dedicated processing cycles for upscaling.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well, one thing we're sure of right now is that there is no dedicated hardware scaler in the Xbox 360. As for how the scaling is being performed by the Xenos - this is the next area of speculation. For one to use the argument of no discernible performance difference between 720p and 1080p as their basis for their theory of a true hardware scaler is premature and inaccurate. Since there is no baseline you can't really compare the before and after. For all we know ATI and Microsoft may have dedicated processing cycles for upscaling.

Well both Dave and ERP should know, and they both seem to be hinting at some sort of dedicated hardware for display scaling.

 

[Dave Baumann]

It was designed by the WebTV group I believe.

Evidently not.

Xenos was the first implementation of the Avivo display engine and the scaler is used from the display pipeline there. But, yes, there is specific hardware to do it.

http://www.beyond3d.com/images/reviews/Avivo/pipe-big.jpg

Xenos would be providing the "display pipelines" functionality in the diagram above (although I suspect that the logic would be limited to 1 display).

 

[function]

There is dedicated hardware. It was designed by the WebTV group I believe.
You guys take every quote from any even vaguely official source far too literally.

So a PR guy made a mistake about where the scaling hardware was during his "ANA can do 1080p (and loads of other resolutions too)" tour '06?

Why, thats unforgiveable. Burn, MS, burn.

Aside from getting the location of this hardware wrong, what did he "lie" about?

ANA can support loads of PC monitor resolutions too, unlike the PS3. And that is something worth bragging about (and flashing chips for) IMO.

 

[pipo]

ANA can support loads of PC monitor resolutions too, unlike the PS3. And that is something worth bragging about (and flashing chips for) IMO.

Yup. I for one hope Sony will add good VGA support in future PS3 revisions.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Xenos was the first implementation of the Avivo display engine and the scaler is used from the display pipeline there. But, yes, there is specific hardware to do it.

Thank you!